Reader Comments

I'm about Ponosov's case. It is not established that he had installed this copies of Microsoft's products. Perhaps they were installed by local computer's supplier. Please don't mix this case and case of AllOfMP3.com. How many judicial proceedings were incited againt users of AllOfMP3.com? I don't like piracy and don't defend it but deeper investigation is required for this case.

"is a blatant attempt to use the standards process to limit choice in the market place" Poor Microsoft. Standardization is of course to limit choice. The ISO explicitely forbids to have more than one ISO standards for the same thing. ODF was first. I don't really see the point to try to have another office document standard. Another ISO standard will harm customers. After MS has gone the 'we don't care for standards'- way for more than two decades, reading such reactions is really funny. MS don't care for cumstomers. They care to continue their office monopoly using their own format as a lever (and has done so for years). Unfortunately for them, the rest of the world is tired of said tactics...

This Daylight Savings issue sounds like stupid. How much energy will be preserved from this? Its impact will probably be a mess in IT systems. About Vista vs OS X. The important thing here is that there is, and always must be Choice. One can install Vista, or OS X or GNU/Linux. But imagine a world without choice. Competition is *really* a good thing. About standardised formats for documents. I can't understand why $$$$$ tries to push yet another document format, instead of adopting an existing standard. ODF, PDF are standardised formats. My sense is that they are pushing a new format for marketing reasons, and nothing else. They just want to say that their format is standardised too. FUD (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fear%2C_uncertainty_and_doubt). My personal opinion is that DRM of all kinds is just stupid.

Microsoft has shown just how serious it is about the DST changes....NOT. With millions of Win2000 machines out there, you'd think MS would give away that patch for free (even though WIn2000 is end of public support), but no...you have to pay to get the proper patch for Win2000. Now we see just how dedicated to it's customers Microsoft REALLY is...

"ODF, PDF are standardised formats" To be fair, in Beta2 of Office 2007, Microsoft did provide a publish to PDF option. I loved it. Free PDF making! Adobe hated it, now Acrobat Professional would die. So they forced Microsoft to stop incorporating it.

"you have to pay to get the proper patch for Win2000." Complete FUD...the following link describes how to update Windows 2000 for the DST changes. There is NO CHARGE for it!!! http://support.microsoft.com/kb/930688 --tayme

Oh, and if you are using older versions of the Mac OS...its really no different...you have to make some manual changes. Stop posting FUD!!! From http://docs.info.apple.com/article.html?artnum=305056 - "Mac OS X and Mac OS X Server versions 10.0.x through 10.2.8 If you're still using Mac OS X 10.2.8 or earlier, you can adjust your clock manually using Date & Time preferences. Deselect the option to set date and time automatically, then set the time for your local time zone as needed. Mac OS 9.2 or earlier Still using Mac OS 9.2? Use the Date and Time control panel to deselect the option to observe Daylight Saving Time changes automatically, then enable Daylight Saving Time manually. Applications that run in the Classic environment of Mac OS X will honor the Daylight Saving Time setting in Mac OS X." --tayme

Microsoft explicitly said that they looked at the ODF formats, but they were inadequate for what they wanted to do. I actually prefer Microsoft's formats; I can rename the file as .zip, look inside and modify the contents inside. Using this feature, I can create custom Ribbons per document, replace embedded pictures, even edit the document within the .xml files. I could even legally create my own reader/writer for Office files without paying Microsoft a dime. Also, will84, you can download a free pdf exporter to Office 2007. There is even a button to "save as pdf attachment", which will save the file as a pdf and attach it to a blank email. Microsoft is creating a plugin that will read/write ODF documents. Again, I must reiterate: ODF is *not* as flexible nor as extendable as Microsoft's Open XML formats.

" What do you think that will do to that Mac resurgence that never actually happened?.......though if Apple's super-successful iPods were really affecting Mac sales, you'd think we'd see some indication of that. It hasn't happened" Yes Paul, you must be right. While US PC sales have managed to grow a massive 10.8% over the last TWO years (cumulative), Mac sales have managed to grow by only a paltry 60.7% over the same period. Figures from IDC. Go tell them "It hasn't happened".

I am using OpenOffice.Org under GNU/Linux. It supports PDF creation, and opening and saving to ms office formats. "Its" default format is ODF which is XML. NateB2 I can't understand why they need to create yet another xml document format. But I am not dilusional. Even if, they adopted ODF, they would "adopt and extend it", a familiar tactic of the past. The reason? Supporting ODF as it is and out of the box, would place them in direct competition with OpenOffice and probably other office suites. True, for Corporations, Office may provide some features not existing so far in OpenOffice. However why a home user would buy Office since the free OpenOffice is sufficient for most home users? They would have to lower prices and provide something *more*. That is, competition promotes innovation and lowers prices. Imagine if one of Intel and AMD did not exist, how much higher prices consumers would have. Imagine if we had more than the 2 microprocessor giants, competing one another with compatible CPUs, how much lower CPU prices we would have.

"However why a home user would buy Office since the free OpenOffice is sufficient for most home users" Three words: Name Brand Recognition.

""This campaign ... is a blatant attempt to ... limit choice in the market place for ulterior commercial motives--without regard for the negative impact on consumer choice and technological innovation"" Was Microsoft talking about their DRM schemes again? ;-)

"January 2007 was the first month ever for CD sales since Soundscan began tracking sales in 1991." That's the funniest typo I've read all day. I didn't know CD sales only started in January of '07! I must have a time machine...

"CNET Corrects a Snub, Sort Of" This sort of thing seems to happen to you a lot, Paul. Maybe you should go to work for a "real" news outlet (or start sleeping with Mary Jo Foley)! ;-)

"Three words: Name Brand Recognition." Or: "Office Just Works" or "Open Office Sucks" or "I Need PowerPoint" or "I Need Access" There's no good substitute for Office, sorry. Perhaps for Word, but not for Office.

Myself have successfoully substituted Excel and Word with no problem. :-) It's not Name, Brand, Recongition. It is about using a strong product to dominate new markets. So secret efficient programming APIs (libraries) are used for the home products, while leaving (holding back) the competition to compete with inferior APIs. Making a palmtop synchonize with Windows only, the palmptop office to work only with other Office proprietary formats, *forcing* the consumer to *buy* the company OS with a new PC, even if he/she already owns it or wants to use another OS, and the list goes on. It isn't innovation, it is chess.

@gnu-user Have you tried Office 2007? I thought not. Office 2007 has 0 toolbars and 0 text menus. It is incredibly easy to use, *much* easier than Open Office. My mom can finally use the mail merge feature without my help. I have taught 80 year old ladies how to insert Pivot tables without my help (They didn't even know what a pivot table was, but they found it on their own and inserted it). "Yes Paul, you must be right. While US PC sales have managed to grow a massive 10.8% over the last TWO years (cumulative), Mac sales have managed to grow by only a paltry 60.7% over the same period." Somebody was sleeping during math class. For example, I will set Apple's markeshare to 1 and PC's marketshare to 100 for illustration purposes. Look at the math below: 1 * 60% increase = 1.6 100 * 10% increase = 110 1.6 - 1.0 = 0.6 110 - 100 = 10 10 > 0.6, right? Am I doing something wrong here? Conclusion: A 10% increase in sales can be greater than 60% increase in sales for a smaller company.

"Myself have successfoully substituted Excel and Word with no problem." For your home use, Open Office is probably OK. I use Excel at work all day, writing macros, using many different complex formulas, Pivot Tables, and eventually Sharepoint (That is being implemented in the near future). Open Office does not provide the level of features that I need. Same with Word. Same with PowerPoint. Same with Access. Same with Outlook. At one time, I created a macro in Excel to send Excel spreadsheets via Outlook to a specified group of people. Now how would I do that using open source software? I am not bashing open source, as I think it is an excellent replacement for some ultra-expensive software, if you can get by with the limited feature set (GIMP comes to mind). However, if you are going to use it for professional purposes, commercial software tends to provide a much better investment.

tayme: that's part of Microsoft's marketing statements on their platform vs. open source software too: TCO (total-cost-of-ownership) and ROI (return-on-investment) www.getthefacts.com XP

"It's not Name, Brand, Recongition. It is about using a strong product to dominate new markets." Is that so? How do you propose to dominate a new market if your product has little to no recognition?

"For your home use, Open Office is probably OK. " I agree with that. Open Office is probably OK for home use. It's free and has all basic functionality. However, even a company like Google uses Microsoft Office and I've met people who are in love with VBA. I'm sure the IT people at Google are aware of Open Office.

"For your home use, Open Office is probably OK. " I agree with that. Open Office is probably OK for home use. It's free and has all basic functionality. However, even a company like Google uses Microsoft Office and I've met people who are in love with VBA. I'm sure the IT people at Google are aware of Open Office.

"I have taught 80 year old ladies how to insert Pivot tables without my help" That's the goal of teaching, right? Showing people how to do things without your help? "Build a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life." --Terry Pratchett.

Vista sales down 30% from XP. Ouch! http://computerworld.com/action/article.do?command=viewArticleBasic&articleId=9011360&intsrc=hm_list Now Steve Ballmer is saying analyst expectations for Vista were too high. And Microsoft continues on its downward spiral into total irrelevance against superior competitors who actually release updates to their products on time.

Whoops, did I say 30%? I meant 60%. Vista sales are a whopping 60% lower than Windows XP, which itself was a slow seller. It's official, folks. Windows Vista is a flop! Just as I predicted on this very website last year.

NateB2: I do not know what a pivot table is either. Is it the usual table, or something special? (I know some Excel) :-) Also I do not argue among open source, free, or commercial. I think there is space for everything. I wouldn't argue against a GNU/Linux version of Photoshop or CorelDraw! for example. Or even using Windows with OpenOffice, and/or Firefox or a combination. Or stick with MS products only. It's OK. The important thing is Choice. Choice is a primary concern. Without Choice there is NOT innovation. So for example, OpenOffice.Org covers my needs so I am OK. You need Office it's OK too. Another likes Mac OS, it's OK too. However I do not like being forced to buy Windows with a new PC purchase, even if I do not want to. This prevents choice. Regarding your macro question, I do not know much about Macros, although I am using GNU/Linux. I use it with GNOME. I know though that there is very much macro support in GNU/Linux in the shell level (bash shell, C shell etc), in the language level (Python, Perl, etc), etc. Provided that the entire OS itself is an API, my pretty-sure guess is that you can do whatever you want in GNU/Linux. Of course you may not use Outlook, although you may use it, if it can run under Wine (http://www.winehq.com/) or the commercial Crossover Office (http://www.codeweavers.com/). sticknick: Let's take the palmtop world for example. Make available only tools for synchronization for *ows OS only and with company's Office only. Also keep the necessary programming APIs (libraries) to do these things, to yourself only, without any documentation of them available to the competition.

@lotsa Funny quote! "Showing people how to do things without your help?" Yes, that is the goal of teaching. I only taught for 4 hours, and 2 hours into it, the "students" were inserting pivot tables. Teaching Office 2007 differs from any other Office suite, because I can effectively teach how to find completely new features, without my help, in an easy and logical fashion. With previous versions, it was more like: "If you want to do X, go to Y menu, mouse over Z category and click A. If you want to do J, click this tiny button on M toolbar. With Office 2007, I can teach the same amount of features in 1/6 or less of the time it took to teach the features in 2003 or earlier.

@gnu-user "However I do not like being forced to buy Windows with a new PC purchase, even if I do not want to. This prevents choice." You can buy computers from Dell with no OS installed. I don't know about other computer vendors. About the macro issue, I'm sure it would be possible to write a complicated script to send the emails, but I was able to whip up a simple macro, I would estimate around 100 lines of code, including comments, that would read in an email list, generate an HTML email with hyperlinks to the updated spreadsheets, and send it. I can't imagine it would be simpler any other way. @Preseton Selling 100 million computers (projected) with Vista installed by the end of the year is a flop? Wow. If that is a flop, I can't *imagine* how much of a flop OS 10.5 will be. I guess you only read the headline. Let me enlighten you with more of the article: "However, retail sales of PCs, virtually all of them sporting the new Vista OS, were up 67% over the same week in 2006. While that is hardly an apples-to-apples comparison -- many stores were clearing out their XP inventory in the weeks leading up to Vista's launch -- "it still reflects a fair bit of growth," according to Chris Swenson, a software analyst with NPD. He declined to release exact dollar figures. Swenson's interpretation of the seemingly-in-conflict numbers? Consumers are "getting the message that they need a more robust system to take advantage of some of the new features in Vista," he said in a statement. Thus, a smaller number of consumers are opting to upgrade their existing hardware with Vista out of fear that it won't be powerful enough. Vista's poor retail sales contrast with Office 2007's strong first-week retail sales, which more than doubled Office 2003's first-week sales. " I guess that proves Micro$$$ucks is dying!

"sticknick: Let's take the palmtop world for example. Make available only tools for synchronization for *ows OS only and with company's Office only. Also keep the necessary programming APIs (libraries) to do these things, to yourself only, without any documentation of them available to the competition." I have no idea what that means, so whatever.

"I don't know about other computer vendors" HP will too. as far as i know, it's just through the business unit though, but that also includes the HP SmartBuy program, in which smaller resellers can sell business-oriented systems (including workstations) without an OS, at a huge discount. i've done it before for those looking for namebrands on the cheap. the systems i make and brand myself are higher quality systems and offer a longer warranty in comparison, but for some, the bottom dollar is the selling point, so the program has it's place in my business. you can get servers REALLY CHEAP in the SmartBuy program, and often they have specials where you can add Windows Server for next to nothing (SBS 2003 at one point was selling for $50 extra, which is <1/10 the normal price). large-contract resellers, like the big box stores, will only sell their mainstream consumer systems with Windows preloaded though. this is true for all namebrands too, because that's the highest consumer market. XP

Nate, seriously, you know better than to argue with Preseton or any of the other bonches. By the way, Open Office does have support for macros, although it's not VBA. If I'm not mistaken, Open Office uses Javascript. As with Microsoft Office, the word processer (Writer) is the weakest program in the Open Office suite in my opinion. Another problem, if you work often with Microsoft OFfice files is that there is no support for Equation Editor or MAth Type equations in Open Office. Other than that, it's a pretty decent suite and is more than enough for home users.

"I have no idea what that means, so whatever." i think he's referring to PDA's and how they supposedly sync only to Windows, which is completely false. gnu, for Windows Mobile devices, there's an SDK available for it that's publicly available. for Palm, well, you'd have to check them out. ditto for Blackberry.

NateB2: Well, there are many choices. I checked CrossOver Office site and saw that it can run Outlook. So you probably can run Outlook on GNU/Linux via CrossOver Office (commercial product) or perhaps with Wine (CrossOver Office is a commercial distribution of Wine, and they provide their programming code back to the Wine community). Myself would check Thunderbird and its javascript support. Also remaining close to Windows compatibility, perhaps you can use C# with Mono and Outlook (Mono is a CLI-compliant implementation. If you do not know what the CLI standard is, think Mono as a .NET compatible VM). Or you can set out for a native GNU/Linux way. I am pretty sure there are more than one GNU/Linux native ways. OpenOffice.Org itself provides Java support, if you have Java installed. There are many solutions in different levels in GNU/Linux. Myself know only the basic stuff for now though (that is a simple GNOME user with minimal command line knowledge). As a bad habbit from the old days, I am logging as root though (administrator in the old days). :-) Regarding Dell. What if I do not want to buy Dell? :-) I am not buying any big name brand anyway, there is a nice computer store chain that are selling their setups, but they force to buy oWs with a new PC. Of course if someone thinks on the issue, he/she can devise a way to bypass this, but I do not like to think like a crook just for buying a new PC! I am using SL which is an Enterprise-level free GNU/Linux distribution and I like this OS and its hardware support and stability. Not to mention that I have a oWs CD. Why do they force me to buy (=give my money!!!!!!) without my consent? What is this? &^*^#$%&(*& I find oWs OK too, that's why I am subscribed to the WinInfo anyway, but to be fair there is a monopoly abuse around here. :-)

@NateB2 "Am I doing something wrong here?" Yes. You're missing the point! Which is that for the last two years US Mac sales growth has outpaced the growth in PCs.... by quite a margin. That means that after more than a decade of losing market share .... the Mac has turned a corner and is winning share back. People like Paul have enjoyed writing about every single downward turn of the Mac's share. However when the Mac gains share it either "hasn't happened" or it's the' my Dad is STILL bigger than your dad' argument.

Waethorn: "i think he's referring to PDA's and how they supposedly sync only to Windows, which is completely false. gnu, for Windows Mobile devices, there's an SDK available for it that's publicly available. " I am not sure whether it is completely false. Do they provide any driver or synchronization software for GNU/Linux or any other OS? The SDKs are for writing an application for the specific platform, for example, an application for .net compact framework (that is an application for Pocket PC). It hasn't much about synchronizing the data of the device with an OS for example. I am guessing here, but I have C++ and .NET 1.0 and 1.1 background, so I can make some safe assumptions about .net compact framework too.

SPiotr: Fanatism is not a good thing. If you like Mac it is OK, but it doesn't mean one must attack to anyone else that has different likes. Are you a Mac stakeholder or something? :-) I like Mac cool looks, and I may even buy one if I can find a nice stable GNU/Linux distribution for it (especially now that they are Intel based).

Speaking of Mac, I always wondered, why they do not make their hardware 100% compatible with the rest x86, x86_64 PCs and their OS to also run to the rest x86, x86_64 PCs. Am I missing something here? Isn't it the obvious choice?

Correction: "SPiotr: Fanatism is not a good thing. If you like Mac it is OK, but it doesn't mean one must attack to anyone else that has different likes. Are you a Mac ==> shareholder or something? :-) I like Mac cool looks, and I may even buy one if I can find a nice stable GNU/Linux distribution for it (especially now that they are Intel based).

@gnu-user I put over a point of view back up with established statistics. No fanatism.

gnu-user, it really doesn't matter if Microsoft doesn't provide synchronization software for any other OS. People don't buy a PC for their smartphone. In fact, it is probably to Microsoft advantage if it does provide synchronization software for other OSs. It'll only increase the target audience for the phones.

Spiotr, the flaw in your argument is that market share growth has NOT happened. Going up 0.1-0.3 is really not that significant. While the actual percentage growth has outpaced PC sales, that really doesn't tell the whole story. If Windows, with 90+% of the market, were to have 60% growth that would be such a phenomenal feat that it would be impossible, since the sample size is already quite large. Vis-a-vis Office, you know it must be quite good when even lotsa proclaims it (without any hyperbole I might add) to be superior. I have used OpenOffice, and while it certainly is more than adequate for home or academic use, it is hardly a replacement for Office in any sense of the word. And remember, WordPerfect was once dominant, and they lost the war to MS. MS did not strongarm the market like they did with browsers. WordPerfect just no longer cut it. Too bad bonch is back. I thought we were rid of him.

@gnu-user I know there are various means of doing it in Linux. However, the simplicity of doing it in Windows is unparalleled. All I need in Windows is to have Office installed, and I can write a macro, embedded within a spreadsheet, that can do amazing things (like send emails in Outlook). I don't need to worry about scripting languages, what email client to use, emulating Office under Wine, etc. @sharky I know I shouldn't be debating with the bonches of this comment section, but sometimes I have fun shooting down their flimsy arguments. :-) @SPiotr Even with the increased sales, it would still take *years* for Apple go gain any substantial marketshare. Let's look at math again. Let's say that Apple's computer sales is 5. PC's computer sales is 100. Apple's sales increase by 60% to 8 PC's computer sales increase by 10% to 110 Apple sold 8 - 5 = 3 more computers than they did 2 years ago PC sold 110 - 100 = 10 more computers than they did 2 years ago. original marketshare for Apple: 5/105 = 4.7% Final marketshare for Apple: 8/118 = 6.7% It climbed a "whopping" 2 percentage points in 2 years, even though the sales increased 50% more than PCs. Furthermore, I would expect PC sales to rebound and reverse that trend again now that Vista is launched. Remember, using the above example, only 3 users would need to switch to PCs in order for the whole scenario to be reversed. Even some mac users are switching to Vista now. ---------------- With Vista, I can now safely say that Vista has *way* more eyecandy than OS X. In addition to all the fancy transitions, I can have a 3D object be my desktop background, for instance a spinning globe that turns in real time. Or, I can have a video background, like a waterfall. Or I can have a static background that changes depending on conditions I set. For those users who value eye-candy (like a lot of mac users), Vista provides a more artistic experience.

shark47: Using a platform domination to dominate new markets is a both way procedure. You make your new market product only compatible with your OS and at the same time you make it difficult for any other product of the new market to work with your OS.

@gnu-user Exactly! That's why the iPod only works with iTunes, Microsoft's smartphones work best with Windows, etc. It is a selling point. Most businesses do that. Where competition comes in is where, for instance, you create a Linux phone that runs in all 3 major OSs. If that phone has some killer features, people will move to your phone, and thus competition happens again.

"for Apple go gain" Should be "for Apple TO gain"

NateB2: I think that if Apple opened its products more, making them compatible with anything else, I think they would have massive gains. I can't understand why they don't this, but it is their problem. Regarding scritping etc. Scripting is not my thing so far, however if plans haven't changed radically from my Windows time, VBA will be phased out in the time of WinFX (was planned as .NET future, the Vista API. I think they will eventually deploy it at a later time than Vista, if they have not provided it with Vista, which I think they did not). Instead you will have either to learn VB .NET, VC# .NET or VC++ .NET (but they were holding back VC++ so as to promote more platform locking in with VB .NET, VC# .NET). If you are going to stick with Windows and VS, are not interested for wide-range programming, but for simple application programming (that your scripting background seems to indicate this), I would begin with C#. C# exists on Mono and other platforms too, is a standardised language, and CLI is a standardised subset of .NET, and Mono is a CLI-compliant VM. So you can do both .NET/WinFX and Mono apps at the same time. If you like broad-range programming learn C++. ISO C++ the language first, and then VC++ or any other C++ IDE you like.

But the difference between Windows Mobile phones and the iPod is that WM doesn't dominate the market the way the iPod does. Moreover, whoever heard of the "Windows Mobile Halo effect"? If Windows Mobile phones don't sync with Linux or OS X, it's because Microsoft doesn't believe it'll gain any traction otherwise. Moreover, Microsoft is not making it difficult for other phone OSs to sync with Windows. That would definitely be a valid case for a lawsuit.

After thinking of it a bit, I remembered .NET networking, its about establishing network connections (TCP and UDP). It isn't about USB, but one can make it possible to synchronize via Internet. Or something. But it sounds suboptimal. Anyway. So in theory one can make an Internet or network synchronization. One with more background on .net compact framework networking may provide some info on this.

"Do they provide any driver or synchronization software for GNU/Linux or any other OS?" no, but then, Linux isn't widely supported by MANY hardware manufacturers. most hardware manufacturers will say it's a waste of resources given the adoption rate. that's also said about Mac's for quite a few things too. hardware manufacturers only want to support the platform where they are going to get the highest revenues, and that, unfortunately for other OS users, is Windows. for me, it doesn't matter though. PDA users are, for the most part, Windows users. you should probably look at one of the Linux PDA's, but the only ones that come to mind are the Sharp Zaurus Linux PDA, and the Nokia Linux-based internet tablet computers, both of which failed miserably in the marketplace. i would [at least hope to] assume that they would be easier to synchronize with a Linux desktop OS. XP

remember a couple articles ago i was talking about the combination CPU and GPU, or "CnGPU" (as AMD is nicknaming it)? http://www.tgdaily.com/2007/02/16/nvidia_cuda/ this is why Intel should buy NVIDIA!! XP

Waethorn: Heh, this is funny. By integrating graphics to its core CPU business (that is pushing down our throat without asking), will eventually drive out dIa, by using its monopoly (or giantism if you like), while at the same time we will be forced to continuously upgrade CPUs. One way to do this is stopping providing drivers for "legacy" products. I am facing this that dIa doesn't provide new GNU/Linux drivers for my video card. :-) The interesting battle would be $$$$$ to make CPUs and make oWs run to this only. Then you would have to pay a subscription to boot your PC (a web service). Nice monopolistic days. :-)

Waethorn: I hadn't checked the URL you provided. It's the same meaning anyway. "Integrating CPU to its core GPU business", and the rest are the same.

Waethorn: Sorry for the many comments. Well, I do not know if it will work for them, or for the other way (Intel, AMD). In any case there will be pretty much competition. Personally I do not like much "combined" hardware.

funny, but i thought AMD buying out ATI was the whole point of that in the first place. they just released their new Crossfire chipset for Core 2 Duo (their competitor) and the reviews are pretty sad. Intel's own mainstream 965 chipset are rating better than ATI's enthusiast chipset, and the 965 doesn't even support dual video cards! anyway, graphics and general processing power should go hand-in-hand and both NVIDIA and ATI know this now. now all we need is Intel to jump on NVIDIA and suddenly we'll see a huge leap into a simplified multi-core single-processor that does everything. XP

Actually, it seems that Intel is bent on creating their own graphics processor. The latest, I heard, is pretty decent. It will be DX 10 compatible, although not as good as nVidia. @gnu-user Yes, I do know a smattering of C++ among other languages.

@bmnbmn "the flaw in your argument is that market share growth has NOT happened" Mac US market share. IDC 2004 - 3.32% 2005 - 3.99% 2006 - 4.74% It's not going down. It's not flat. It's ... going .... up! You know it's really not rocket science.

"If Windows Mobile phones don't sync with Linux or OS X, it's because Microsoft doesn't believe it'll gain any traction otherwise." Microsoft is like that banker in the Capital One commercial that doesn't understand the little guy coming to him for a loan. They just don't think they have any competition whatsoever (and in most cases, they're right). They're not evil, they're just arrogant and clueless. To paraphrase an old analogy, they're running a railroad, and they don't realize they're in the transportation business. Hence products like the Zune. Thankfully, third parties step up to the plate and manage to do a credible job of integrating Micro$oft technologies into other operating systems, since the powers that be in Redmond don't think, for instance, that the huge numbers of us that create media on a Mac would possibly have any use for Windows Media Technologies (actually, we don't...but some of our more misguided clients do). Same with Windows CE, or Windows Mobile, or whatever they're calling it these days. MS doesn't make it easy, but somehow third parties are able to make 'em work. Thank God for independent developers.

Wow spiotr, I guess in 100 years, at that rate, we will be running Macs! Expect that number to stall or decline this year.

@NareB2 Thanks for that valuable addition to the discussion. My point has always, quite simply, been that Apple has managed to grow sales of the Mac faster than the rest of the PC industry over the last couple of years. And that the growth is measurable and, if your Apple (and your share is tiny to start with!) it is not insignificant.

lotsa, it's not a question of arrogance. Developing software for other platforms is not free. It costs money and if Microsoft doesn't believe the returns justify the investment, they're not going to do it.

funny sharky, but i thought i said the exact same thing. losta just loves to argue with me, is all....or else he doesn't understand how the real world works (and by that, i mean, when a company HAS no competition, they tend not to worry about losing less than 2.5% of the global market). ;) XP

I should swim right past that "Waethorn/PC-Bonch" bait, but I'm gonna bite anyway. Heaven help me. "when a company HAS no competition, they tend not to worry about losing less than 2.5% of the global market" Given that Apple's presence in digital media far outweighs their miniscule market share, I personally think it's shortsighted for Microsoft to not support Windows Media Technologies on the Mac. Their decision to leave this up to third parties is, frankly, baffling to me. Full support would probably let WM completely dominate--which it doesn't at present, in part because the production tools just aren't there (and most Mac-using media producers would rather chew tinfoil soaked in their own urine before switching to the PC).

If I recall well, MS actually gave Apple money when it was about to go bankrupt. I do not know exactly why they did it, but the fact is Apple (and Corel if I remember well too), owes MS their existence. Regarding monopoly abuse they are in courts here with EU (although I am not sure they actually have thought what they *want* to do, it looks like they haven't made their mind). The thing I am wondering is why Apple doesn't provide their OS to the rest of the Intel/Amd PC world. I would give it a try at least once, and I am guessing millions of others would do, and thus they would have much cash (more than what they have now). The same applies for their hardware. Am I missing something?

"I personally think it's shortsighted for Microsoft to not support Windows Media Technologies on the Mac" about as shortsighted as Apple not incorporating Windows Media support in their own media apps? and as shortsighted as Apple not supporting QuickTime codecs through DirectShow? XP

"The thing I am wondering is why Apple doesn't provide their OS to the rest of the Intel/Amd PC world" they don't want to do that because when they can make a 35% markup on their systems over PC vendors that make less than half of that, they don't want to lose that markup percentage even if it means they could possibly make more money in the end. likely what would happen is that they'd lose their computer sales altogether to cheaper, superior hardware....or maybe they figure that given the choice, people will still choose Windows and it would bankrupt them in an instant! AHAHAHAHAHA! XP

" I personally think it's shortsighted for Microsoft to not support Windows Media Technologies on the Mac." Yes, Macs do have a significant presence in the digital media world but how many of these Mac owners are really interested in Windows Media Technologies? A very very small percentage. Most of the Mac community hates Microsoft and doesn't want to have anything to do with the company. So, you're right.It is arrogance that's keeping MS from supporting Windows Media Technologies on Macs but it's the arrogance of the iPeople.

Actually I see no reason why I would not give Mac OS X a try if I could install it on my PC, or buy a new PC with Mac OS X, or buy a Mac PC and install whatever I want (provided its price makes sense). Or buy a new Mac PC with Mac OS X. You know, Choice. Definitely they would have more than 100% sales increase of Mac OS X and probably much more sales of Mac PCs.

choice and competition aren't all they're cracked up to be. the main issue is interoperability. there's plenty of examples that i can cite, but here's a few: Mac OSX vs. Windows OpenXML vs. OpenDocument DVD-R/RW vs. DVD+R/RW HD-DVD vs. BluRay various DRM schemes (too many to list here) various media codecs (again, too many to list here) CD's vs. SACD's vs. DVD Audio vs. MiniDisc NTSC vs. PAL vs. SECAM VHS vs. Beta vs. SVHS vs. DVHS DVD vs. VCD vs. SVCD vs. miniDVD vs. CVD vs. SCVD MiniDV vs. Digital8 vs. MicroMV vs. HDV vs. HD ATI vs. NVIDIA (regarding supported features and driver capabilities) AMD vs. Intel (regarding supported features) so each of these so-called "standards" has really helped the consumer how? the key is global standardization. real innovation comes from partnering and pooling resources. competition only leaves the consumer behind. XP

@gnu-user Apple will not license OS X because they want to be in control of *every* part of the "user experience". Apple doesn't have to worry about their OS working on some off-brand, cheap piece of junky hardware; they only have to write drivers for the hardware they put in Macs. Opening up their OS would cause them to have to write millions upon millions of device drivers (like Microsoft had to do with Vista). In other news, I was accepted for the Home Server Beta 2! I am d/ling now. I have been excited about this ever since MS announced it in CES. I know just where to test it - I will put it in my parents' house and see how easy it is for them to use it. If my *mom* can easily use it, than *anyone* can use it. :-)

" I do not know exactly why they did it, but the fact is Apple (and Corel if I remember well too), owes MS their existence." Actually, the agreement to continue developing MS Office for the Mac was more significant than the financial investment, which--truth be told--was relatively minor, and significant only as a symbolic gesture. The pledge to continue developing Office, however, was huge. If you go follow history back far enough, you could also say Microsoft owes its existence to Apple as well. Excel was a Mac-only program at one time. PowerPoint got its start as a Mac-only program before Microsoft bought the company that made it. Word's user interface was ported from the Mac version to the PC. And we all know Windows was a (initially lame) attempt to imitate the Mac. Both companies owe a great deal to each other. Actually, I see that as a good thing. An Apple-less or Microsoft-less world would be far less interesting. "competition only leaves the consumer behind." That is the dumbest piece of socialistic claptrap I've ever heard. For someone who constantly harps about the wonders of "choice", I'm frankly shocked. Competition, "Waethorn/PC-Bonch", is what drives innovation.

"For someone who constantly harps about the wonders of "choice" " when have i done that? i've only said that Mac users don't get it. choice is just inherent in the PC world. "innovation" is just a marketing buzzword used for turning something old into something obsolete. "socialistic claptrap" McCarthy is dead. get over it. XP

....and Apple owes their media software existance to Adobe which started them on the course that they're currently on. look at them now....they're making the Adobe Premiere Pro for the Mac and calling it Final Cut Pro. after all, they hired the original designers of the Mac version of Adobe Premiere to make it. too bad for them that Adobe is bringing the REAL Adobe Premiere Pro back to the Mac. XP

"and Apple owes their media software existance to Adobe which started them on the course that they're currently on" Bull$hit. Adobe didn't develop QuickTime (that's "media software", right?). And Avid was dominant on the Mac when Premeire was widely considered to be a joke. FCP made Apple a serious contendor again (and as you know, they bought that from Macromedia). The return of Premiere to the Mac is a sign that Adobe recognizes the significance of the Mac market presence in media...which brings us full circle to my original argument that it's baffling how Microsoft ignores it. Thanks for helping me make my point even clearer, "Waethorn/PC-Bonch". "choice is just inherent in the PC world." Yep. As long as you "choose" Microsoft.

From Paul's Internet Nexus site: "So ... Apple will sell in one year what Microsoft sells ... in its first month. Sure, that's great, I guess. But Vista will just keep selling. And selling. And selling. And after the initial Leopard upgrade boom ends quickly, Apple is pretty much back to its million Macs a quarter. Not exactly the recipe for a comeback." We all know many times more copies of Windows will be sold than Leopard. Thanks for stating that Captain Obvious. On the flipside however, Vista will cause more upgrade nightmares, blue screens incapatibilities, UAC annoyances, DRM annoyances etc ... in one week than any version of MacOS X ever will. By the way, a full retail version of Vista Ultimate in New Zealand costs around NZ $1000. (I kid you not). Meanwhile, A full version of Leopard will sell for NZ $250 with iLife (NZ $90) and will easily be Vista Ultimate's equivalent if not superior. You also won't likely need a new computer to run it. Macs are sooo expensive nowadays. It's no wonder people are buying new PCs, they are being forced to, first to get a computer that will satsifactorily run Vista and second, it's the most economic way to get a copy of Vista. A boxed copy just isn't justified.

"On the flipside however, Vista will cause more upgrade nightmares, blue screens incapatibilities, UAC annoyances, DRM annoyances etc ... in one week than any version of MacOS X ever will." It has more to do with the type of people who install the OSs. Most OS X users love Apple and dislike MS. Most people who complain about Vista on the net (like David Pogue) are huge Apple fans too. I read a review of Vista (on a blog) where the author was complaining that the UAC popped up whenever he tried to run programs. Obviously this guy hadn't used the OS but was basing his review on stuff that he'd heard from other people who knew someone who knew someone who had installed Vista. I'm not saying Vista is better than OS X. All I'm saying is that many of these complaints should be taken with a pinch of salt. FWIW, I never saw a BSOD while running Windows XP. I upgraded 2 systems from Windows 2000 and one from Windows XP Home to XP Pro. Not one BSOD.

"Adobe didn't develop QuickTime (that's "media software", right?). And Avid was dominant on the Mac when Premeire was widely considered to be a joke" and Quicktime was a joke before Premiere started using it as it's native format. Sorenson video wasn't even out until Premiere started utilizing Quicktime, and before that, Quicktime was using Indeo and Cinepak among other things, which are both completely horrible codecs. plus, you should know that Avid has completely shyed away from Mac platforms. their current generation software is still only working on G5's, while on the PC side, one can take advantage of the vastly superior Dual & Quad-Core Intel Xeon's. also, SoftImage (a critically acclaimed company, and owned by Avid) and their software only runs on Windows systems. here's another one for you: NHK, a Japanese/Worldwide company, and the pioneer that introduced HDTV programming to the world has been actively using Avid software for years now. and they don't use Apple computers to run it on. i guess that shoots to hell the theory of the "significance of the Mac market presence in media". "they bought [Keygrip/Final Cut] from Macromedia" they had to - nobody else wanted it! with Adobe out of the market, they were grasping at straws. they even wanted to sell Final Cut to another developer after they purchased it, but nobody raised their hand. XP

NateB2: I am only using a local POP3 server to get my local system emails via POP3 in Thunderbird. I do not remember if one can do it in Windows Home or Pro. In any case I can install whatever servers I want, SQL servers, http servers and so on for free on the same PC. What does this Home Server provide additionally? Give some info if you found something you liked. lotsamystuff: I have mentioned "Choice" for sometimes but I am not "Waethorn/PC-Bonch". I don't know if they mentioned it too, just wanted to clarify if you made some mistake.

sharky writes: "lotsa, it's not a question of arrogance. " With all due respect, here's a Microsoftie that says it better than I ever could (http://tinyurl.com/create.php): "Finally, what can I say about Ballmer? Beyond questioning, as I have, what content was included while leaving major issues - like investment track record to date - largely unaddressed, I have a real problem with his tone and attitude. The word that comes to mind is flippant. I'm sure that's not his intention, but it nonetheless seems to be the result. You get almost no sense that this is the CEO of a publicly-traded company who is accountable to his Board and shareholders." THAT attitude, my friend, is what permeates the entire organization.

"Waethorn/PC-Bonch", your revisionist history is incredulous to the point of being laughable.

"The word that comes to mind is flippant." and the same thing can be said about Jobs for blatantly ripping off a known trademark. losta, you should really bone up on your history of Apple. i'm sure Jobs gives you a "bone up" already though. btw lotsabonch, nice try using the wrong URL to quote somebody. heh heh. smart way to try to argue for your own [lack of] sanity. AHAHAHAHAHA! XP

lotsa, it's probably one of those anonymous bloggers (Mini-MSFT?) who think writing software programs for five years has taught them enough about running a company. Every big company will have empoyees who are disgruntled with how things are going. That's just natural. Does that mean the CEO is incompetent or is flippant? Maybe not. "THAT attitude, my friend, is what permeates the entire organization." I know several people who work at Microsoft. While some of the Windows programmers are not happy with their jobs, the rest of them love the company and their jobs.

@NateB2: "Apple will not license OS X because they want to be in control of *every* part of the "user experience". Apple doesn't have to worry about their OS working on some off-brand, cheap piece of junky hardware; they only have to write drivers for the hardware they put in Macs. Opening up their OS would cause them to have to write millions upon millions of device drivers (like Microsoft had to do with Vista)." It isn't that much an issue. In GNU/Linux I check the web (and a mailing list) about what hardware has GNU/Linux drivers, before buying it. For example when I moved to GNU/Linix from Windows I had a Zoom 56K fax/modem. They do not provide a GNU/Linux driver. So I had to buy a Tornado 56 K fax/modem that provides a GNU/Linux driver. In other words, a buyer could check a company's site to see if they provide a OS X driver or if OS X supported it. NVIDIA for example provides GNU/Linux drivers. So they would be forced to write millions of drivers in reality. They xcould write drivers for their hardware products and let the rest decide what to do.

@NateB2: Correction: NVIDIA for example provides GNU/Linux drivers. So they would not be forced to write millions of drivers in reality. They could write drivers for their hardware products only and let the rest hardware manufacturers decide what to do.

"using the wrong URL to quote somebody" That really was a boneheaded mistake. Here's the proper URL: http://tinyurl.com/2eqrdm ----- "While some of the Windows programmers are not happy with their jobs, the rest of them love the company and their jobs" I'm sure none of them "love" what Ballmer's comments did to the stock price, though. ------ "In other words, a buyer could check a company's site to see if they provide a OS X driver or if OS X supported it." Often, OSX supports it anyway. I've written before about my surprise at buying supposed "unsupported" peripherals and having them work properly on my Mac. In fact, in trying to prove someone wrong on this forum, I discovered that a DVD burner I bought specifically for my DELL worked just fine on my Mac, even though the manufacturer didn't say it would. Most things will ("Waethorn/PC-Bonch", you don't need to point out the obvious exception of video cards). That's one of the best-kept secrets of OSX.

Thanks for putting up the link, lotsa. When things are not going right, people love to look for scapegoats. Think about the situation in Chicago after the Super Bowl loss to the Colts. Everyone is baying for Rex Grossman's blood. It hardly matters that the spectacular CHI defense hardly did anything to stop Peyton Manning. Moreover, the situation at MS is not as alarming as these people make it out to be. Yes, the stock took a tumble because of Ballmer's comments about Vista, but he's not an idiot. He didn't obviously just go and blurt this out. I'm sure he knew what he was saying and the repercussions of his statement.

Oh, and as Waethorn mentioned, the iPhone trademark issue was probably arrogance at its finest. As long as Apple remains Wall Street's darling, this arrogance will be tolerated and even rewarded by them. This will not go on forever, though and things will change.

"like Microsoft had to do with Vista" Microsoft doesn't do that. a hardware manufacturer has to send Microsoft their pre-WHQL-certified drivers stripped of extra functionality (such as custom control panels, and 3rd-party code ie. OpenGL). if they make the submission deadline, it's added to the Windows install CD/DVD. if they don't, but they're WHQL-certified for final RTM code, they're added to Windows/Microsoft Update automatically. Microsoft only makes drivers that can be WHQL-certifed for older, common hardware where the original manufacturer stopped supporting it and the driver from a previous version can be easily modified. btw: when an entire computer system is WHQL certified, it also immediately qualifies for the "Designed for Windows" logo. after being certified it will also be added to the Windows Marketplace too. this is really good for small-to-medium computer builders to get their names out, but it does cost a lot to do it. the main cost involved is in getting a Verisign ID for WHQL submissions. the whole process is mostly automated, but requires the secure ID to submit the test results to Microsoft. at last check, a Verisign ID cost over $600US/yr (if i read it correctly), which is more than what most small system builders can afford just to certify for the logo. the actual case stickers have to be purchased separately from an authorized printing agent too. for some small computer builders (like me) it's too much money to justify. if the certification didn't require an expensive Verisign ID, i'd highly consider it, but for now, it's just not feasible. i'd LOVE to have my computer systems showcased on Windows Marketplace and considering that they do that for no extra expense, it's a pretty good deal. i just wish they had their own digital certificate method that cost less. XP

"I discovered that a DVD burner I bought specifically for my DELL worked just fine on my Mac" that's a completely stupid argument anyway. optical drives don't need specific drivers regardless of the brand - they use a virtualized hardware enumerator. Windows only sees them as an "ATA drive" and checks to see if the firmware reports that it supports CD or DVD burning. what you see in Device Manager is just the OEM string being read out of the firmware by the communication with the system BIOS. the only thing needing a proper driver is the drive controller. any ATA/IDE or SATA drive will work in Windows regardless of the make or model. the same goes for 1394 & USB2.0 devices, and also for hard drives of any type. digital cameras and DVD camcorders are also the same since they will often just show up as a drive letter. USB input devices such as keyboards and mice? ditto! XP

@lotsamystuff: If you are not an MS shareholder, why do you care about the MS shares? @Waethorn: Interesting info. Scientific Linux and CentOS are Red Hat Enterprise Linux source code recompiled (http://www.redhat.com/rhel). And that's why I like them, they are of Enterprise-level stability. Very good indeed. In any case, they have a list of Certified hardware (https://hardware.redhat.com/hwcert/index.cgi) which AFAIK is of hardware manufacturers who paid for Certtification (http://www.redhat.com/solutions/partners/hwp), and there is a list of compatible systems for which I do not know the criteria of inclusion. In any case much hardware is supported from the OS itself and many hardware manufacturers provide GNU/Linux drivers. After my migration to SL from XP, only my fax/modem had no GNU/Linux drivers, so I had to buy a new one (internal fax/modems). The rest of hardware, even my Sony monitor are supported.

I don't know why some large spaces are introduced in my messages some times. Anyway, even my "Microsoft Internet keyboard" is supported explicitly from SL!

"I don't know why some large spaces are introduced in my messages some times." Because the text alignment is set to "justify".

Is it possible to change this setting somewhere in a per user basis? I thought it is a bug of the $$$$$ server, that is when processing the messages, if it sees some reference to money, it gets excited.

"a Verisign ID cost over $600US/yr (if i read it correctly), which is more than what most small system builders can afford just to certify for the logo. the actual case stickers have to be purchased separately from an authorized printing agent too. for some small computer builders (like me) it's too much money to justify." That comes out to about 12 bucks a week. I'll bet you lose more productivity than that every week by spewing in this forum. You must be operating on a shoestring budget if you can't afford such a measely amount. It hardly seems excessive.

"Is it possible to change this setting somewhere in a per user basis?" Are you kidding? No. It's hard coded into the CSS. Unless your expecting changeable user themes on an IT site.

@lotsamystuff, he may be out of the States. And if not in EU, $s have much value. In any case I think they should provide at least some kind of certification for very low costs, even free if that is possible. Well, I do not want to start again about what I should expect for an OS, like some free programming IDEs and compilers of what they consider the basic languages of the platform (C++, C#, B). Even Commodore 64 provided the ability. And no, I do not mean just download some SDKs that provide free command-line compilers, I mean perhaps something like the "fast" editions (called with another name actually) of their programming studio, that are now selling, for free. It would be for their interest too, but when customers have learned to pay much and demand little, this is what is happening. No prob with me of course, they are free to pay their loyalty "taxes" for as long and as much as they like. :-) Just to make any OS X users happy, I think Mac OS X provides ths ability too, supporting Objective-C in the past, and now perhaps more languages, and I assume shell scripting since they are based on *nix.

"That comes out to about 12 bucks a week. It hardly seems excessive." plus there's the $$$ per machine configuration that needs to be paid per test. every time you change a piece of hardware, it becomes a new configuration. plus there's the cost of stickers....then there's also the requirement of using signed drivers. normally that's not an issue, but right now, the WHQL drivers from NVIDIA are just sad. they have beta drivers that are much faster. ATI's drivers are showing graphics anamolies in some programs. when a system gets sold with the "Designed for Windows" logo, it has to ship with the same driver configuration as when it was tested. so for now, it's not worth it to ship a system like that because it's not in the best interest of the buyer. however, i just found that Microsoft and Verisign are offering digital ID's for $399US for a limited time, so i might pick one up. hopefully driver quality will improve soon. "I thought it is a bug of the $$$$$ server" they're using ColdFusion. nuff said. btw: the ad servers seem to have fast days and slow days. XP

@Waethorn: What I said about the server getting excited, was a joke. But any info is useful always. :-)

"There will be no WinInfo on Monday because of Presidents' Day. (Which, incidentally, I had to look up: Presidents' Day is a curious amalgamation of Abraham Lincoln's and George Washington's birthdays, which used to be separate holidays. Apparently, we're overloading holidays now to make space.)" Welcome to the party, Paul. It's been like this SINCE 1971. Where have you been for the past 30+ years?

"@lotsamystuff, he may be out of the States. And if not in EU, $s have much value." Our friend "Waethorn" is Canadian. Today's exchange rate is 1.1639, making the Canadian equivalent of $600 USD $698.34 $Can. An additional burden, to be sure, but not terribly excessive. Those stickers, OTOH, must cost a fortune... ;-)

"Those stickers, OTOH, must cost a fortune..." they cost $1 apiece. plus, for every different Windows platform evaluation, it costs $250US per test via WinQual. if you change a major piece of hardware, or update the software, it's another $250 to have it retested. granted, it's not necessary for every single change, but for the most part it is. you honestly think it's a reasonable loss when in this day and age, people are going to small computer stores for custom computers? if you do, you're as much an idiot as i already thought. XP

btw losta, unlike Apple, i like to keep my system prices competitive with the rest of the world. integrating that added cost into the sale price isn't an option. XP

Stop it, both of you. Seriously.

oh sharky, can i help it if losta thinks he knows everything, even though everyone else knows he doesn't? ps: 11 pages! (w00t!) i guess "the WOW starts now!".... XP

"and now for something completely different...." Virtual PC 2007 is now released! www.microsoft.com/virtualpc Enjoy! XP

"Stop it, both of you. Seriously." LOL! Awesome!

@Waethorn: "Virtual PC 2007 is now released!" Interesting news. However I think VMWare is better. Xen also has a promising future. AFAIK Xen will be integrated to Red Hat Enterprise Linux 5 (and thus probably to Scientific Linux 5 and CentOS 5), and is included for testing purposes on the latest Fedora Core (currently version 6). Just to provide additional info: VMWare: http://www.vmware.com Xen: http://www.xensource.com/xen Red Hat page on virtualisation: http://www.redhat.com/virtualization Truth happens, Interesting info on this one: http://www.redhat.com/truthhappens

@Waethorn: Regarding those stickers and stuff. You can always create your stickers with your name and an indication "GNU/Linux Ready", for example for server machines, and providing an Enterprise-level stable GNU/Linux distribution (like Scientific Linux, CentOS) for to your customers. And your customers will be able to get the latest OS updates, since these distributions (and most GNU/Linux distributions) provide their own update mechanism infrastructure and for free. Remember, we are talking about *Enterprise-level* stability here, not some home-user only distributions. With http servers, pop3 servers, SQL servers etc. If the users need support, they may opt-in for a commercial Enterprise-level GNU/Linux distribution like Red Hat Enterprise Linux. Scientific Linux and CentOS are Red Hat Enterprise Linux source code recompiled. Welcome to the Open Source world.

And a link about the upcoming Red Hat Enterprise Linux 5, virtualisation including Microsoft, Suse, etc: http://news.zdnet.com/2100-3513_22-6146149.html Choice is a good thing.

"Welcome to the Open Source world." Ugh. The only thing worse than a Mac zealot is an Open Software zealot. ... make his own stickers LOL.

@stick, I'm an open source proponent, where it makes sense. I use MS SQL since it really is enterprise grade, but if it weren't so hard to configure, I'd use Apache in place of IIS. Actually, the only thing worse than a Mac zealot is multiple Mac zealots.

:-) Actually I am a Choice zealot. That means we always should have more than one choices. For example you may check these links with great info: http://planet.go-oo.org http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/Major_OpenOffice.org_Deployments http://www.techspot.com/news/24406-dell-customers-demand-linux.html I see no reason, why not reduce the cost of a system when it is possible and the user wants it.

"make his own stickers " I think that is part of recompiling the kernel... but seriously, I think that gnu-user is employed by the lab that builds Scientific Linux or CentOS!!! He usually refuses to even use the word Microsoft. Actually, I agree with bnm...Linux has its place in the datacenter, but not so much on the desktop. Linux servers are great for a lot of applications...in fact, they make a good Oracle database server. There are also a lot of comm, storage, and backup appliances that run linux, and they are very stable. --tayme

@tayme: "but seriously, I think that gnu-user is employed by the lab that builds Scientific Linux or CentOS!!! He usually refuses to even use the word Microsoft." No, I am a GNU/Linux home user only. I don't know much GNU/Linux command line (actually this is what I know for the command line: "ls -al", " find / -name "something" ", "ps -e |grep something", "rm", "updatedb" (though I have disabled its autoupdating and I am not using it), "rpm", "yum". I use it via GNOME. I had checked GNU/Linux in the past (in the Slackware 3.0 era and in some Suse Linux 7.x, 9.xprobably, but had found it to be unsuitable (too primitive) for home use. However things have changed very much now, and are changing. I expect EL5 to be even more user friendly than EL4.x (EL4.x comes with OO 1.x.y for stability reasons, EL always aims to stability, and I am using OO 2.1 by having installed it myself, but EL5 will come with at least OO 2.0.4 which was a pretty and stable version). I will learn some real GNU/Linux administration at a later time. :-) In the meantime, GNOME is pretty good (and KDE and probably other window managers that others like or dislike). In fact I know more for MS things than GNU/Linux. I know multithreading programming in .NET with C++ and I haven't written any serious program under GNU/Linux yet. :-)

"No, I am a GNU/Linux home user only. I don't know much GNU/Linux command line (actually this is what I know for the command line: "ls -al", " find / -name "something" ", "ps -e |grep something", "rm", "updatedb" (though I have disabled its autoupdating and I am not using it), "rpm", "yum" " ... and "shutdown", "vlock", an encryption program and perhaps I am forgetting few others right now. Bottom line, I am using it mainly via GNOME.

"Regarding those stickers and stuff. You can always create your stickers with your name and an indication "GNU/Linux Ready", for example for server machines, and providing an Enterprise-level stable GNU/Linux distribution (like Scientific Linux, CentOS) for to your customers. And your customers will be able to get the latest OS updates, since these distributions (and most GNU/Linux distributions) provide their own update mechanism infrastructure and for free. Remember, we are talking about *Enterprise-level* stability here, not some home-user only distributions. With http servers, pop3 servers, SQL servers etc." I'll just make this short and quick: I want to sell (keyword: SELL) products that people actually want. Red Hat Enterprise Linux WS 4 has had more security flaws found in the last 2 years than Windows XP has had in the last 5 by almost 70% more! Sorry, but that's just not acceptable. XP

Here's a new story (sorry Paul, I beat you to it): tinyurl.com/2l89n9 XP

@Waethorn: The actual software that you are getting with the GNU/Linux distributions is far more than what oWs by itself provides. A 70% more "security flaws" is far less than I expected. However the impact of any flaws is not necessarily the same: http://fedora.redhat.com/About Regarding "SELL" I agree with you. If you think or not that you have a market of GNU/Linux servers or clients, it is up to you to decide.

you're link is for Fedora. i like to compare Windows to the commercial version of Linux - RHEL, since it's supposed to be "cleaned up" and "more stable" although it's still based on open source code. in the enterprise world, it's usually looked upon as the flagship Linux OS on the market. i should also note, that most of those security flaws are remote access flaws that can easily be exploited without having any pre-authorized privilege level. these equate to Linux versions of MSBlaster, but in volume. even with OpenOffice included with RHEL, it still accounts for far more security flaws than Windows and Microsoft Office have accumulated together. Microsoft's patch time (although is often criticized) is still far less than what Linux vendors are able to cope with. the problem exists because often the original owner of 3rd party code has to be contacted to update the code or else relinquish control of the project. this is also a major flaw with the GNU license model. the BSD model on the other hand, doesn't have that restriction, nor do original code owners have exclusive commercial rights under the license. someone can take any BSD open source code, modify it, and then sell it commercially without paying royalties. if you haven't already visited it, you should check out this site: www.getthefacts.com i like the line one guy says: "I would never trust my day-to-day operations on a system that is essentially a piece of freeware". XP

i also wanted to point out, that in referring to royalties and such, when developing on Microsoft platforms, Microsoft themselves will pay for any litigation costs when code trademark disputes come up. on Linux, those disputes are your own problem. again, this relates to certain legal flaws in the GNU license. because of the way the BSD license is written and how restrictions are set, litigation isn't possible under it. XP

Yes because we all know that Microsoft, Linux, and Apple studies always tell the truth with zero bias. Numbers can lean anyway you want them to. Be realistic.

"Yes because we all know that Microsoft, Linux, and Apple studies always tell the truth with zero bias." i don't need any studies. the site i pointed out has customer testimonials to show that. XP

ooooh....the number 13....spooky! XP

"www.getthefacts.com" That site should be "get-the-spin.com". "i [sic] don't need any studies. the [sic] site i [sic] pointed out has customer testimonials." [sarcasm] Yes, who needs things like "unbiased studies" and "facts" when you have "customer testimonials"? [end sarcasm]

....and who really needs to criticize Steve Jobs for all his stupidity when his hardcore users [sic] are stealing his spotlight? see, lotsa - that's how you use the term: [sic]....learn some English why don't you. XP

"On Tuesday and Wednesday, my good friend Karen Forster will be doing WinInfo for me." Evidently not...I wish she would post something before Waethorn and lotsa get this thread up to 40 pages...I think that their [sic] war is about to begin!!! --tayme

tayme - way ahead of you. i got my keys all warmed up.... ;) XP

@Weathern Tell me how Windows customer testimonials and Microsoft sponsored studies void out all the Linux customer reviews/studies, and visa versa. None of them do, so there is no point in pointing out a marketing site to try and prove that Linux is a bad choice.

no but it backs up my own opinion. ;) XP

@Waethorn: Give me a break with this $$$$$ propaganda. "you're link is for Fedora. i like to compare Windows to the commercial version of Linux - RHEL, since it's supposed to be "cleaned up" and "more stable" although it's still based on open source code. in the enterprise world, it's usually looked upon as the flagship Linux OS on the market." These security features are open source. Also Fedora is essentially the next EL under development. In any case in my installation SELinux exists and is enabled. Probably you didn't check this PDF link: http://people.redhat.com/drepper/nonselsec.pdf "the BSD model on the other hand, doesn't have that restriction, nor do original code owners have exclusive commercial rights under the license. someone can take any BSD open source code, modify it, and then sell it commercially without paying royalties." You are free to choose whatever you like. Regarding GNU/Linux, you can take the EL code, remove any Red Hat references and perhaps some other minor changes according to its license, and sell it. Since Red Hat EL consists of Open Source projects, they are obliged to provide the code and anyone can remove the company references, recompile the code resulting in his own distribution, and sell it. "www.getthefacts.com i like the line one guy says: "I would never trust my day-to-day operations on a system that is essentially a piece of freeware". " It is up to you to decide for yourself. In any case I disagree with these "facts". Definitely there is a market for both GNU/Linux servers and clients. For example check how many web servers are based on GNU/Linux. This is a fact. "i also wanted to point out, that in referring to royalties and such, when developing on Microsoft platforms, Microsoft themselves will pay for any litigation costs when code trademark disputes come up. on Linux, those disputes are your own problem. again, this relates to certain legal flaws in the GNU license." This is a big FUD.

@gnu-user: "Give me a break with this $$$$$ propaganda." Whats with the dollar signs...you are spewing as much propaganda as Waethorn, especially when you refuse to use the name of the company - Microsoft, not $$$$$ - or the Operating System - Windows, not oWs. What did Bill Gates do to you, anyway? --tayme

"Waethorn/PC-Bonch": Using "[sic]" is a way of alerting the reader that any nonstandard grammar, spelling or choice of words in the quoted material were not introduced by the person doing the quoting. When I quote you, I'm often forced to use the "[sic]" designation, because your refusal to capitalize properly and use standard English is rampant in your writing. I don't know why you put a "[sic]" after the word "users" when it was used in the proper context. Perhaps you thought it needed an apostrophe when, in fact, it didn't. ----- Reflections: "Tell me how Windows customer testimonials and Microsoft sponsored studies void out all the Linux customer reviews/studies, and visa versa. None of them do..." Waethorn/PC-Bonch: "no [sic] but it backs up my own opinion." That insightful response pretty much sums up the substance of all your arguments, doesn't it? ----- "What did Bill Gates do to you, anyway?" Heh. Good one.

@tayme: Whats with the dollar signs...you are spewing as much propaganda as Waethorn, especially when you refuse to use the name of the company - Microsoft, not $$$$$ - or the Operating System - Windows, not oWs. What did Bill Gates do to you, anyway? I have not any specific problem with MS. In fact they do nice products, although I have some serious concerns regarding probable monopoly abuse and free competition, as many people on the planet. In fact I may buy Vista Home or something in the future (perhaps after SP1). "Whats with the dollar signs..." I didn't realise that the $ use causes negative feelings. Perhaps I will change the sign just to avoid giving wrong impressions.

@gnu-user: "Perhaps I will change the sign just to avoid giving wrong impressions." Why not use the real names? Obviously, you can type...you've been doing rather well with that. I have no problem with your opinions and support of Linux. I use it myself. I just think that you are here to bash Microsoft for some reason., and your insistence on using dollar signs to represent the company name backs that up. Just for reference, can you explain what is meant by oWs? Maybe I am misunderstanding you. --tayme

So anyway, does anyone know what is the progress on WinFX, WinFS and Monad development?

@tayme: With "oWs" I meant what I think you have understood.

@gnu-user "Monad" is now called "PowerShell." You can download the final version and install it on XP. WinFX is now ".Net 3.0", WinFS as a project is now dead, but a lot of the technology that went in WinFS is integrated in Vista.

"I don't know why you put a "[sic]" after the word "users" when it was used in the proper context. Perhaps you thought it needed an apostrophe when, in fact, it didn't." i put [sic] after "hardcore users" because they obviously are smokin' the same stuff that Jobs does in the Apple Field™. XP

"You are free to choose whatever you like. Regarding GNU/Linux, you can take the EL code, remove any Red Hat references and perhaps some other minor changes according to its license, and sell it. Since Red Hat EL consists of Open Source projects, they are obliged to provide the code and anyone can remove the company references, recompile the code resulting in his own distribution, and sell it." that's not entirely accurate. if the code is identical to what Red Hat offers and Red Hat doesn't like it, they can sue your a$$ into the ground! this is where GNU fails. commercial open-source software is not the same as free open-source software. most people don't understand that. and no, Red Hat doesn't give out their proprietary source code portions for Enterprise Linux. only Fedora is 100% "open". GNU allows coders to maintain intellectual property rights with royalties on source code, BSD does not. and no, that is NOT FUD! accept it or not, but it's the truth. XP

@NateB2: Thanks for the useful round up. @Waethorn: AFAIK GPL provides the ability of copyright but also provides the ability of forking. Check google about forking, you will find much info. Actually Oracle provide their own fork of Red Hat EL: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unbreakable_Linux I think that in your message there are wrong "facts". I assume that you are somehow misinformed. In any case I am not going to participate in a debate about what is better or something. The better for someone is what he/she likes and normally people have different tastes.

Also this has some useful information about Red Hat EL and stuff: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Hat_Enterprise_Linux_clones

Waethorn: I tried like H$%^ to stay out of this one, but couldn't help myself. My point being this....you are completely mis-informed about how GNU actually works. It's not worth it to get long winded on details here....I would just suggest you try some different sources because your information (at least the little I have seen here so far) misses the mark. By the way, and not to change the subject, I fiddled around with the one and only machine I have running Windows (Windows Media Center Edition 2005) (All other machines I use are Linux distributions) and found some interesting downloads that now have my system using Flip 3D and aero on XP with no strain on the machine at all. These are simple and cheap applications and of which further prove that the giddyup hype over the beauty of Vista at the cost of hardware upgrades is a crock isn't such a crock at all. What is a crock is the BS about how a person should migrate to this lousy operating system. There's a disturbing secret as to what Vista is really all about.....I won't get into it, but do some math and some heady research and maybe you will catch my drift.....even you will find it rather disturbing, as pro Windows as you seem to appear.

C'mon Treeorc, don't be coy. Tell the 'Disturbing secret'. If it is that disturbing all us unsuspecting Windows users need to know. Until you can tell us all you are spouting is FUD.

@treeorc: Please tell any secrets, don't let us like that! :-) In the past I have read many things on the web, for example regarding a secret key in encryption mechanism which had an unexpected comment http://tinyurl.com/t5hm7 http://tinyurl.com/b33of OpenGL being pushed back in terms of efficiency in the latest version of in favour of the OS graphics library, etc. One more "secret" isn't that earth-shaking for you to tell.

bah! this is just more he-said/she-said nonsense. this is like saying that someone that owns a Kerberos key can easily get access through your Windows authentication. mmmm....FUD....:P XP

"OpenGL being pushed back in terms of efficiency in the latest version of in favour of the OS graphics library" mmmm....i gobble up your FUD and spew it back at you.... OpenGL isn't even made by Microsoft. Microsoft does not include OpenGL support in out-of-box drivers because it's a third-party API. graphics chip makers are the ones including support. if your graphics card is running slow, wait for new drivers. ATI and NVIDIA *JUST* released highly improved video drivers for Vista (Catalyst 7.2 and ForceWare 100.65) and they both include OpenGL. also, ATI has always been slightly faster in Direct3D than NVIDIA, whereas NVIDIA has always been slightly faster in OpenGL. that has changed with the launch of NVIDIA's DirectX10 8000 series graphics chips though. saying that OpenGL has been "pushed back" somehow, is like saying that DirectSound is pushing back ASIO. sorry, but both of those API's are not created by Microsoft so they have no regrets if the authors of those API's are slower at developing new functionality than they are with Direct3D and DirectSound. btw: DirectSound in Windows Vista is now a streamlined machine. without the legacy support for EAX with DirectSound3D (EAX 1 & 2, which Creative themselves have deprecated), it is now optimized for massive multi-channel audio using multithreaded instructions designed for multi-core CPU architecture. the reason they moved most of the acceleration from hardware to software is because "hardware acceleration" from poor audio processors included in onboard audio wasn't sufficiency offloading enough processes from the CPU anyway, and was still putting a restriction on the # of audio channels with so-called "hardware acceleration". with it's new lower latency, DirectSound is now a worthy competitor for ASIO. XP

btw: for the dispute on GNU/GPL vs BSD, you should read this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BSD_and_GPL_licensing XP

I did not intend to make any FUD. You provided useful info. Yes OpenGL is provided by the graphics card makers but if I recall well, Windows come with their own "built in" OpenGL support (which is outdated, version 1.xx or something). I think this is the one that was being left behind in Vista. However you are right, I should have checked some resources and be more precise. Perhaps I 'll do it later, but since I am not a Windows user anymore, I am not much in the mood for much Windows info research. In any case, I should have been more precise.

"There's a disturbing secret as to what Vista is really all about.....I won't get into it, but do some math and some heady research and maybe you will catch my drift.....even you will find it rather disturbing, as pro Windows as you seem to appear." What the h**l is this about? shark47 said the exact same thing about Office in the other thread.

"Windows come with their own "built in" OpenGL support" i don't recall anything about that, but if that was so, it was likely all that they were licensed for by SGI (OpenGL's creator). starting with Windows Vista, Microsoft took out a lot of 3rd-party code support in their API's because likely their licenses ran out, and they found that the userbase that was utilizing them didn't justify the costs to pay to renew the licenses. bmn(x2): sharky was just making fun of treeorc's "conspiracy theory". XP

My guess is that this is referring to the supposed DRM that is put into Vista. Again, more FUD. The DRM features are *only* enabled if the HD content tells the OS to enable them. In order to legally play content, *every* OS will need to enforce similar measures. Yes, that includes Linux. @treeorc: You found TopDesk and WindowBlinds? Congratulations. Those are only cheap workarounds for the real thing. Vista includes the only *true* 3D desktop based on DirectX. Besides, Vista includes *so much more* than just a "pretty" desktop. I am constantly discovering new, exciting features in Vista.

@NateB2: I am not referring OpenGL for DRM support. DRM is "another chapter" that is OS independent (at least for me). Anyway you made me check Google and came with these: http://slashdot.org/articles/05/08/06/177251.shtml http://www.digg.com/tech_news/Microsoft_finally_enables_OpenGL_Windows_Vista_support I am not in graphics programming, so I am not sure what exactly is the case and am bored to find out at this time (my guess is it was about the "built in" OpenGL). In any case, you may consider this argument dropped, because I am not willing to spend much time searching on Windows support of anything.

Has anyone run Vista Business on a PC with less than 1GB RAM? I know that the minimum requirement according to MS is 1GB but has anyone tried this? I wonder how it compares to XP.

@gnu-user I was replying to bmnbmn's comments, regarding treeorc's strange post. The DRM has *nothing* to do with OpenGL and/or DirectX. @sharky-yes Vista will run fine. I had Vista RTM running on an old 2.2 Ghz P4 computer, with an nVidia GForce 5500FX graphics card, 512 mb of ram, and an old SoundBlaster Live! card. Aero worked just fine. However, since Vista caches your frequently used programs in memory, the more memory the better. 512 is maybe OK if all you are planning to do is word processing, email, and simple web browsing, but if you are planning on doing *any* serious multi-tasking, the performance will degrade.

"Has anyone run Vista Business on a PC with less than 1GB RAM? I know that the minimum requirement according to MS is 1GB but has anyone tried this? I wonder how it compares to XP." yes i have sharky. i've tried it on the basically the minimum requirements that Vista require - a VIA C3 Nehemiah 1GHz with 512MB DDR266 RAM (single-channel). it runs better than Windows XP Pro SP2 on the system, and from what i've seen, runs better than most systems run XP with 256MB. XP

"http://www.digg.com/tech_news/Microsoft_finally_enables_OpenGL_Windows_Vista_support" you should check your posts. that *story* was made 339 days ago "http://slashdot.org/articles/05/08/06/177251.shtml" now this is just getting silly. that one was made in 2005. back then, these "stories" were nothing but rumours and FUD, and still is. the facts are: a) Microsoft doesn't include OpenGL support because it's 3rd party software b) videocard makers are the ones providing OpenGL hardware support c) Aero uses DirectX/Direct3D 9.0 API's with Pixel Shader support d) OpenGL development is moving at a far slower rate than Direct3D XP

forgot to mention: it's funny how the source of this article: http://slashdot.org/articles/05/08/06/177251.shtml no longer exists! XP

@NateB2: "Vista will run fine. I had Vista RTM running on an old 2.2 Ghz P4 computer, with an nVidia GForce 5500FX graphics card, 512 mb of ram, and an old SoundBlaster Live! card. Aero worked just fine. However, since Vista caches your frequently used programs in memory, the more memory the better. 512 is maybe OK if all you are planning to do is word processing, email, and simple web browsing, but if you are planning on doing *any* serious multi-tasking, the performance will degrade." Hmm, and I thought my 1 GHz Pentium III with 1 GB RAM and GeForce4 MX 440, was considered old. And I think the sound card must be older than Live! too (don't remember, don't bother to check). However this post reminded me of the days with tweak xp adjusting caches etc. Old good days :-) Well at least for me. I am not going to start any comparisons. Anyone may have whatever he/she likes. :-) @Waethorn: OpenGL is an open standard, and AFAIK if MS wants it can implement it, and there is no need to license anything (again AFAIK). Also I am not even sure if they have to implement anything so as to provide OpenGL. And the useful thing about a standard is that whatever implements it, is mostly portable to different platforms. Like Quake 3 for example. Now we know what exactly they do not like, right? BTW, what is the meaning of your signature "XP"? Regarding Vista vs XP, I haven't seen Vista final but only a Beta, but in any case I think it is very hard to assume that Vista is faster than XP given its specs. You mean in my PIII 1GHz/1 GB RAM, Vista is faster with all the graphics on than XP? Or you mean by not using Aero etc.

"if MS wants it can implement it, and there is no need to license anything" actually, as history has shown, developers like to get a piece of the massively huge Microsoft pie. there's been lots of times before where Microsoft has been stung by a developer that wants to charge Microsoft a licensing fee for bundling whereas for others, it's provided for free. see Adobe and the Acrobat Format for recent proof of this. this is SGI's license information too: http://www.sgi.com/products/software/opengl/license.html "You mean in my PIII 1GHz/1 GB RAM, Vista is faster with all the graphics on than XP?" I can't say for certain, but if you have a DirectX9 graphics card that is capable of Aero, it will still have a more responsive UI than XP does, since XP's Luna doesn't support 3D hardware. I would still say "it's likely" for your system though, since it has 1GB of RAM. SuperFetch does a really good job in improving application launch times the more you use your computer too, and it works with Disk Defragmenter to optimize file locations on your drive to further improve launch times. "BTW, what is the meaning of your signature "XP"?" it's a silly affront to non-Windows users. ;) XP

Thanks guys. A friend of mine asked me if he should install Vista Business on his laptop that he purchased last year (don't know the exact config but it has 512 MB RAM). I'll ask him to give it a try.

"A friend of mine asked me if he should install Vista Business on his laptop that he purchased last year (don't know the exact config but it has 512 MB RAM). I'll ask him to give it a try." Wow. With friends like that, who needs enemies? ;-)

losta, with friends like yours....oh, right, you don't have any.... XP