Print - Opinion: Microsoft's Revised WGA Version Still Annoying, Unfriendly to Users

Microsoft's reviled Windows Genuine Advantage (WGA) program got a face-lift last week, and the company rolled out a new version of the antipiracy program to users via Automatic Updates. The new version of WGA provides more information to users who have a copy of Windows that WGA suspects is pirated, and features a new "indeterminate" mode, in which the program determines that a copy of Windows is possibly--but not definitely--pirated.

Yep, it's all about the user experience, folks. Although one might give Microsoft credit for switching from the previous system--in which WGA determined that Windows was either genuine or not, with no middle ground--the new system really serves only to highlight that the WGA tools often have no clue whether a copy of Windows is illegitimate. In the indeterminate mode, WGA will provide users with tools to help establish the legitimacy of their system, putting the onus of proof on the user instead of on Microsoft. It's unclear whether this is the type of benefit users were asking for from Microsoft's Genuine Advantage program.

Also, many users will take exception to Microsoft's continued practice of shipping WGA to users via Automatic Updates, a tool that's specifically designed for delivering critical security updates--not spyware, which the previous WGA version was proven to be. However, Microsoft said it promised to update WGA "every three or four months," and this update satisfies that promise.

In an interview with "InformationWeek", analyst Michael Cherry suggested that the new WGA version really just provides Microsoft with a way to avoid the numerous support calls caused by the earlier buggy versions of WGA, which often flagged systems as false positives--legitimate systems that WGA deemed pirated. Cherry said that now, instead of being "annoyed and mad when they call," Microsoft customers can "be sent off on a whole day adventure to troubleshoot validation for Microsoft." Sounds like a win-win.

...because $50 billion in Cash on the Balance Sheet is somehow not enough. Thanks for the spyware, Microsoft! When will more pragmatic heads prevail? Will the new blood like J Allard bring an end to customer hostility? By the way ... what's with all the special characters in the anti-spamming image??

"By the way ... what's with all the special characters in the anti-spamming image??" You need the rare 656 keys keyboard that Paul uses to enter those symbols.

Second attampt...this site is really screwy, Paul...come on..work with us here. We've been complainging about the verification text for months now... Anyway, This one will get all of the bonch identities riled up for sure...a lot of people will consider WGA spyware and/or an annoyance...but its Microsoft's right to do this. If it bugs you that much, use OS X or a linux distro. I have nothing to hide...thus, I'm not worried. --tayme

It always cracks me up how OEMs put in their ads " recommends Windows XP Professional". As if they had a choice in the matter. OEMs (real ones, not Weathorn) have no choice but to ship their machines with Windows. In order to get the price of the systems down, they have to have third-party software trials pre-installed. That software only works on Windows. Without Windows, there's no pre-installed software, so no price break on the hardware. The same goes for support tools. Outside of the server setup CDs, many OEM support tools only run on Windows. "They can get away with it because there is really no alternative OS." Exactly.

All I'm going to say is, it's amazing that this company still has any defenders left at all. Vista is a huge, disappointing flop, and they actively force abusive spyware onto users despite having billions in the bank. The Seattle Times mentions how after 5 years and 10000 engineers, Vista is an already-obsolete flop that nobody wants: http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/businesstechnology/2003460386_btview04.html A 15-year Windows vet tries a Mac, his response is "My God! This is amazing!": http://thomashawk.com/2006/11/thomas-hawk-buys-mac.html

A) I don't believe Paul actually controls this site; he's just a contributor. I've sent lots of emails to the "support" address... I think the problem is that the site admins are too stupid to fix the problem. B) It's "microsoft's right" as long as my version of Windows is pirated. But if I took out a second mortgage on my house to buy the latest version legally, microsoft has no right to tell me I'm a criminal and disable my system. The fact that I paid my money means I have a right to use the software. Anon: "they can get away with it because there is no alternative OS" That argument is quickly dying. If Microsoft keeps believing they can fiat whatever they want based on their monopoly status, they are in for a rude awakening in a few years. They're gonna wake up one day and find that millions of people are fed up with crap like WGA and have left for greener pastures. EDIT: This didn't show up when I clicked "submit" the first time. So I might be duplicate posting again, but I'm gonna try it a second time. 2ND EDIT: SWEET! The error screen! I haven't seen that since... the last time I tried to post something. I love this site. It's like a game; will it work!? God only knows. 3RD EDIT: I opened up character map and couldn't even find some of the glyphs I was supposed to enter. I was gonna try them, but apparently this site uses a combination of English and Egyptian.

Preseton: That guy must be pretty popular; his switching story made it all the way to apple.com. I like reading people's impressions when they come over. And I like reading all the comments that say "Me too! I just got my first mac and I love it!" I know it *******everyone off, but I like reading those articles so keep them coming.

bdk - I've had the same thing happen to me twice today now. I've reported many of the issues to the support address as well...to no avail. You'd think Paul and other contributors would step up and do something about it. " It's "microsoft's right" as long as my version of Windows is pirated." - and I'll give you that one...but I really think that the false positives are rare and over reported by the media. The media has hopped on the "bash MS at whenever possible" bandwagon along with Apple and the iPeople. For every person that has switched to OS X and had a good experience there is on that has not been impressed. I was in a local Apple store this weekend to get my mouse replaced and when I was waiting for 30 minutes at the "Genius Bar" I overheard 3 people telling the "Genius" that they wished that they hadn't purchased their Mac. One of the people could not get their Mac to connect to a wireless network...they said that their PC connected fine...The "Genius" did his job ans faithfully sold this person an AirPort Extreme router, because "It will just work better." I'd love to see the outcome of that. --tayme

Tayme: Oh, sure, there are folks that switch to Mac and don't like it. That's fine. They are by far the minority, however. The ratio is far from 1:1 as you imply it is. But, at the same time, most of these folks' experiences are not Apple's fault. A good portion of them expect the Mac to work just like Windows, and when it doesn't, they just get mad instead of figuring out what's different. Another good portion (including the example you mentioned) have only themselves to blame because they have a bare minimum level of technological knowledge. This crowd is often the sort who can't get a computer and a wireless network to sync up. Apple's "airport" solutions are really the best bet for these type of folks because they require absolutely no configuration. And I'll give Microsoft and other PC companies a break too: a lot of the complaining and whining isn't their fault. A lot of it is just that the average computer user is dumb. And I don't mean dumb as in they can't use the terminal or write JavaScript... I mean dumb as in they use the word "memory" when they're talking about disk space. Sure, Macs are on average easier to use than PC's... and I do think Apple simplifies a lot of things that are complex in Windows... but at the end of the day, the Mac is still a machine. And just like everyone should know how to check the oil and coolant levels in their car, everyone should have some basic computer knowledge... like how to type 192.168.1.1 into a browser window and set up wireless networking. Or, at the very least, how to type "Mac Wireless Network Setup" into Google.

A quick followup: I've done a TON of wireless network troubleshooting for virtually everyone I know. Far and away the problem I encounter most often is that the user didn't realize their network was password protected. Either someone set it up for them, or they entered a password and forgot it, or the office admin had the network locked to certain MAC addresses... I mean, it's a good practice to keep your network password protected. But you need to REMEMBER the password! And whether it's a Mac or PC you're trying to connect, the easiest way to walk a non-technical person through the process is just to have them go to their router and hold the reset button. The computer will then have no trouble connecting and you can talk them through securing the network again.

"OEMs (real ones, not Weathorn) have no choice but to ship their machines with Windows." Offensive, yes, and completely untrue. There are many direct OEM's that also deal in Linux. There are not many, because supporting it is a nightmare. Most companies will also sell you a PC without an OS if you call their phone sales line. Smaller system builders (like me) can also deal in Linux, but again, the cost of supporting the platform is too high, and hardware and software compatibility is atrocious. It's just a crapchute for system builders because the amount of people that even ask for it is miniscule. The investment involved in doing the research for a platform that is so close to nil in demand isn't worth it for most people. Why do you think there are so few Authorized Apple Dealers? (Not to mention the unreal purchase contract that's required) "In order to get the price of the systems down, they have to have third-party software trials pre-installed. That software only works on Windows. Without Windows, there's no pre-installed software, so no price break on the hardware" This is advertising at it's finest folks. Dell is now (or was) including MyWay, the company that developed the infamous adware MyWay SearchAssistant toolbar for part of their income dollars. For more info, see rebuttal#1. "Apple's "airport" solutions are really the best bet for these type of folks because they require absolutely no configuration." So how do you configure security such as your WEP/WPA security key to prevent people from getting access via the hole discovered during Black Hat? "type 192.168.1.1 into a browser window and set up wireless networking. Or, at the very least, how to type "Mac Wireless Network Setup" into Google." Oh right! What, Apple doesn't include a manual??! "have them go to their router and hold the reset button. The computer will then have no trouble connecting and you can talk them through securing the network again" see #3

" like how to type 192.168.1.1 into a browser window and set up wireless networking." -Except that the Airport does not have such an interface. I typed in 192.168.1.1 in a mac that was connected to an Airport Express, but I received a error page. I tried different variations, such as 192.168.10.1, before figuring out that the Airport has its own control panel. Why? *Every* other wireless router uses 192.168.1.1 as a configuration page.

"just to have them go to their router and hold the reset button." The funny thing is that the "Genius" did this and still could not connect the Mac. It was a LinkSys router(not sure on the model), which I use at home and have no issues with my PCs or Mac. Looking a this guy, it was obvious that he was no "Genius" as advertised...just a salesman...selling the customer on the Apple products. He was taking the Airport out of the box when I had to leave, so the outcome is unknown to me...my point is that at least at this Apple Store on this day, they did a very poor job of helping the customers. --tayme

"A good portion of them expect the Mac to work just like Windows, and when it doesn't, they just get mad instead of figuring out what's different. Another good portion (including the example you mentioned) have only themselves to blame because they have a bare minimum level of technological knowledge. This crowd is often the sort who can't get a computer and a wireless network to sync up. Apple's "airport" solutions are really the best bet for these type of folks because they require absolutely no configuration. " Of course people get mad. Have you not watched the Mac commercials? "It just works!" "Right out of the box" "No drivers needed" Read more: http://www.apple.com/getamac/ People have every right to be ****** if they buy into this crap. They bring the computer home and realize that, even though it's shiny and white, it's still just a computer.

"B) It's "microsoft's right" as long as my version of Windows is pirated. But if I took out a second mortgage on my house to buy the latest version legally, microsoft has no right to tell me I'm a criminal and disable my system. The fact that I paid my money means I have a right to use the software." I want to see a case of someone using an install with valid keys and actually having a problem with WGA. I'll bet dollars to nickles that the problem is one of the two, 1) Homeboy has the same copy of windows running on 5 PCs. 2) Homeboy's PC was purchased with a copy of Windows, but Homeboy reformatted and entered an illigit CD key b/c he can't find the one that came with his box, and he doesn't realize that in the eyes of MS, it doesn't matter what image you use, only the Key. I've got 3 PCs, 2 desktops, 1 laptop running a combined total of 7 Windows images. 3 XP pros, 1 Server 2003, and 3 vistas. Office 2003 and 2007 on all of them. WGA has been transparent to me, never even seen it other than a continue button, which always says okie dokie. So really, if WGA says you are illegit, then yeah, its up to you to prove you arn't. Because the only way you can get tagged is if someone else has your CD-Key. And if they do, or you have someone elses... time to pay the piper.

"Or, at the very least, how to type "Mac Wireless Network Setup" into Google." Hard to do if your router doesn't work. Heh. I guess you could just tell them to connect hardwire directly to their internet connection, but that could have dire consequences. 'Hello Mr. RJ-45, meet Mr. Coaxial :) Oh jesus! Mr. Coaxial! Thats no way to treat Mr. RJ-45! All the melting and fire! Gahhhh!' --- " "It just works!" "Right out of the box" "No drivers needed" Read more: http://www.apple.com/getamac/" Bravo. I agree, if you advertise that everything is easy, then it should be. If it doesn't work automatically, sue Apple. They said it would, false advertisements and whatnot. Of course, Apple only guarantees that it works in an Apple environment. Which is pearl white, 65 years old, and smells of diapers. Low end iMac's got some competition now... PS3 looks slick and has a full linux OS. And something iMac doesn't, no not BD, no not HDMI out, no not better software support, a game library, hehe.

From http://www.apple.com/getamac/works.html "Of course, should you happen to experience the occasional hiccup with your Mac, you won’t get the runaround. Because Apple makes the whole enchilada, one phone call — or better yet, one visit to the friendly Genius Bar at your local Apple Store — can solve both hardware and software problems in one fell swoop." Well, of course, there is that $199 for the AirPort Extreme...that's 802.11g...then it will work, I think! --tayme

"http://thomashawk.com/2006/11/thomas-hawk-buys-mac.html" Did anybody read the comments section? "Welcome to the club, if you post a photo of your new girl.. " "I have never had such a sexy device in my life!!!! " I think all of the iPeople are in **** with their computers. bonch, you started something!!! --tayme

"$199 for the AirPort Extreme" Really??! HAHAHAHAHA! WOW!! I just sold a guy a Netgear RangeMax NEXT WiFi Router and matching USB Adapter for $199 CANADIAN! Just to compare, he could've got the standard Rangemax 108Mbps combo which has the Apple pearly white look for $20 cheaper, but decided to go with the WiFi-N 300Mbps version instead. You wanna know something funnier?? The Airport Extreme is based on 802.11g DRAFT and IS NOT WIFI-G Certified!! (YES REALLY!!) That's also why it doesn't work with Windows PC's that support 802.11g. For WiFi-N, I could understand that since it's not ratified yet, but COME ON! This [802.11g] is a soon-to-be 4 year old standard! That's just sad. Just another way Apple is milking it's customers.

" I think all of the iPeople are in **** with their computers. bonch, you started something!!!" Haha. Yes. And they're huge fans of Microsoft and well-wishers of the company.

Waethorn: You finally flat out contradicted yourself. You said "many OEMs" offer Linux as an OS and then in the very next sentence you said: "Not many do because of the support hassles." Bravo, sir. Tayme: Apple's stuff DOES just work. I've personally walked 17 people through switching, and each and every time their new Mac connected flawlessly to a wireless network. Each and every time when they plugged in their printer, it just worked. Each and every digital camera they plugged in just worked. Got a USB joystick? It works. Got a scanner? It works. Got a 27th century isolinear chip containing 54 terabytes of data? That doesn't work, get the h-e-l-l back to your own time! Need I remind all of you that someone here (I forget who) tried to prove me wrong on this point by hooking up a DVD burner that someone told him would not work with Mac? Naturally, it did. He then came on here and admitted he tried it just to prove me wrong. There are hiccups. That's unavoidable. But FAR AND AWAY Macs just work. And you can read any of the thousands of switching stories on blogs from here to Japan that will prove it. And again, Tayme, like you said: the satisfied customers don't show up and say "great job" at the genius bar. If you're at the genius bar, you're at a place where only the people who've had trouble are. Though, I will admit, very few "geniuses" at the Apple store know anything.

An email from a friend of mine today: "My MBP up and choked. Its hard drive is 100% hosed. Kind of wish I'd had more warning than just the sudden-onset "you're screwed" noise; I was booting this morning to make a backup of my critical data when it gave up the ghost entirely. But at least I have AppleCare? And in 7-10 days, a new hard drive. No data though, just a clean drive." Nice.

"$199 for the AirPort Extreme Really??! HAHAHAHAHA! WOW!!" Strange. I paid $69 Canadian for my D-Link DI-624. Main PC (server/gamer), laptop 1 (music recording, graphics design), laptop 2 (wifes computer), hooked up and running in under teo minutes. Didn't have to set up anything really. Just plugged it in and the PC went "cool! connection" and both laptops went "wireless, whoo-hoo!". Nary a problem here. When our friend, mentioned in the comment above, comes over, she types in our password and her Mac goes (went?) "whoo-hoo! connection!" Yet when we go to her place, the Air Port WILL NOT let our laptops access the network no matter what we try. I guess that's what Waethorn mentioned up there. Again, nice.

They can keep churching out WGA all they want and I'll keep using the cracks. Cat and mice games are fun. I read an article that Microsoft almost makes their products intentional to crack because imagine if they were stubborn like Mac with their binaries (which is much more difficult to pirate, but do-able.) I can understand why they would do this, they would rather people pirate their software than use a free alternative such as Linux, or look into a mac.

Reflections: Worked for me. Up until Windows 2000, all of my copies of Windows were, uhhh, "borrowed". Windows 2000 was so awesome at the time, that I bought it WITHOUT question. I still remember the guy at the store: "You know that this is "new" new right? Like it may not work with some of your hardware and/or software." "Yah, yah, just take my money." Since then, paid. OEM verions, but paid (I can troubleshoot myself).

I run a Linksys WRT54GS (not particular about running DRAFT hardware), but I only have one wireless card for my desktops. Know what my hardwire router is for the x360 and other desktop? Why its the 2x1GB nic powered by Windows Server 2003 lol. ICS is a great thing, and I can pull 350KBps (2.73Mbps) at the farthest end of the chain like this -> -> -> -> while network activity is occuring in the following manner, -> -> @ around 10Mbps. (methinks the 360 uses an elcheapo HDD, throughput ain't so fancy) which I think is pretty darn good considering its software on GP hardware. MS allows me to save 99US (xbox wifi card) + wireless card for the other desktop. Plus my two nics on the server desktop don't go wasted. And all that sits around 3 to 4% CPU usage since Windows supports TCP/IP offwrites if your mobo has it (does). Yeah, with Apple you can use any DVD player you like. That's really fancy. And tech support identifies your problem as 'oh, you arn't using our product silly, lemme bump you down to draft technology, don't worry... they didn't rewrite any of the spec before this went to etching :)'. I'm on a bit of an MS trip at the moment because I've sat down with MS Visual Studio 2005 for a week. I've been a 'terminal programmer' for almost 5 years. Today I wrote some of the most elegant text I ever have thanks to the uber-slick debugger. This thing eats gdb to pieces, you can float back and forth in live execution, modify everything, dual monitor support is amazing, I can have all the variables and method trace on one side while I walk through on the other. Heck even my malloc statements don't look like I wrote them... it literally lets you see the code in a new way. Absolutely beautiful. I guarantee someone who's intimate with MS's IDEs could code any Xcode APPLE ENGINEER into the ground. Kudos MS, I have seen the light!

bdk: Learn to interpret what you read a bit better next time so I don't need to hold your hand, like Apple does when you use their software. What I meant is that there ARE major OEM's with direct contracts with Microsoft that still offer Linux as an OS option, but OVERALL there are not many system builders that do. The companies that do, often have big bucks to spend on major support staff, trained to offer assistance with it, but the cost of the training and support is too expensive for most system builders for the demand. I thought I made that point clear already! "imagine if they [Microsoft] were stubborn like Mac with their binaries (which is much more difficult to pirate...)" Where have you been? It is "cracked" (via an EFI workaround - whoopdeedoo), but much like actual OSX software developers, there are less people working on it. Again, this is a supply and demand issue. Here's some other news: The Airport Extreme only has one ethernet port! No 4-port switch? What the hell are you paying 2 bills for? An integrated modem??? WTF is that??! "Who designed this crap?" TM - tomshardware.com BTW stick: if you can't get a PC connected, it's possible that your WiFi card is defaulting to WPA, but of course, with only real 802.11b support on the AirPort Extreme, WPA isn't possible. Obviously the lack of REAL 802.11g doesn't help either. Your wireless cards might be half-detecting that it supports WiFi-G and trying to connect to it at that speed, when it really doesn't support it. Manually specifying WEP might work. Of course, you could always tell your friend to buy a Netgear Rangemax router to stay with the Mac "look" (the blue antenna lights on top are pretty sweet too). It's got a STANDARD web-based interface like any normal router not some stupid app. http://www.netgear.com/Products/RoutersandGateways/RangeMaxWirelessRoutersandGateways/WPN824.aspx

Waethorn: Perhaps you should learn to write better. The exact wording you chose to use implied exactly what I said it did: a contradiction. Of course I understood what you MEANT - the point is you expressed it poorly. But then again, computer geeks aren't known for superior English skills I suppose. StickNick: Sorry to hear about your friend's HD. Macs, Dells, Lenovo, HP... all the same harddrives. No, I did not write the Get A Mac page. But I have switched many many people. And I WOULD like to design for Apple. Unfortunately, the 3,500 mile commute would be a killer. About the Wireless MumboJumbo: If you're trying to connect a PC to an Apple wireless network, your problem is most likely that you're trying to enter a network password in HEX form. Apple's hardware uses ASCII passwords (so that you don't have to enter something obtuse like 2003ccda44). Adjust your PC's wireless settings accordingly and you'll be fine. As for the rest of the Mac-Bashing: Why don't we just wait and see how Mac sales do over the holidays? Anyone wanna bet how much growth YOY there will be? I'll give you a hint: It'll be in the double digits. ;) There's just no arguing with reality, boys. The Mac is coming to destroy your homes and eat your children! Run! Run for your lives!

Also, Waethorn: Only one of our OS's boots into an obscene "Welcome" screen the first time you turn it on.OS X leaves you right at the desktop, ready to get stuff done. And... uh... my OS doesn't have Wizards. And I won't even start with the dancing paperclip. Shall we talk about BOB instead? What was that about hand-holding again? How does that foot taste?

Also, a word of advice: Hide anything shiny. Macs LOVE shiny objects. They will steal them. You might also consider slaughtering a lamb and painting every doorframe with its blood. MacRumors.com claims that this method is successful at keeping Macs away roughly 50% of the time. But the info is based on some Genius at the local Apple store, so take it with a grain of salt.... And an Airport Extreme Router for $199!

Why is it that people who profess they wouldnt touch a Microsoft product with a bargepole congregate around sites like this one. One suspects that they are in some way jealous of people that have purchased Microsoft products. Its like watching a feeding frenzy around a crocodile pool. For heavens sakes guys go somewhere else and fester. On a serious note I agree with Paul and personally think that the gen.adv. thing reeks of over kill and verges on the illegal, although I can understand where they are standing. One hopes that this and the eula are backstops and will be applied with commen sense. Bother about the scrounging moaners above not about annoying your genuine customers. Some of the products comeing out of M/s now are the best ever.

This is the one issue that I have to take Microsoft to the woodshed. With the millions of computers that Microsoft gets preloaded versions of Windows and the millions of computers custom made, there's absolutely no need for the WGA. Microsoft is making huge amounts of money. I agree they should recoup their investment. But the number of school districts, businesses, and home users, Microsoft recovers the investment in spades. Microsoft's greed needs to be curtailed and users need to demand the $299.99 and $399.99 US Dollars we'll spend on Vista, the one computer limit is absurd! For the price of Ult. Vista, we should at least get 3 Product Keys and a 3 computer limit and for the non-ult. editions, we should get at least 2. This is a unifying point that I really believe both Microsoft and Apple users should press Microsoft to change. The price point, EULA, and the WGA creates more pirates. People's average incomes not increasing to keep up with costs, its unrealistic for Microsoft to expect people to buy that many copies of Windows to cover every single PC. I never had problems like that with 2000, 98, 95, etc. Instead of bickering and fighting each other, fighting the right battles would be more appropriate. I've used Macs in the past and have checked out recent versions at the stores. They have improved their products. However, the lying Mac does with their advertisment and the problems just on this comment section alone, justify my investment in Windows. The average Mac users don't want to get technical and when the system requires them to, users throw a fit. Even cars require a certain level of knowledge. People want it all now and the MTV culture excess is finally catching up to Apple. Thats why I stay with Windows. I do the diagnosis and the reading to find solutions. I like being able to get things to work. Current Macs are like the past ones, when it doesn work, its useless. Apple and Microsoft need each other, the competition makes the other better.

@will84 Another convert to VS 2005, huh? I've been using it through MSDNAA, and it is *by far* the best IDE I have used. Without it, my projects would take literally double the time. Open source/free IDE's just can't compare with Visual Studio. They don't come close. @Waethorn Of course the Airport Extreme only has one port: that's so the average dumb user doesn't plug his internet ethernet cable into the wrong port. Apple is making it easy for their average user's intelligence. Duh! Also, the Airport uses its own WEP encryption method that Windows PC's can't connect to. @bdk: Once Vista is released, expect Apple sales to drop and PC sales to jump. Customers want something new/better, and Vista delivers. For instance: I maintain a number of family/friends' computers, and sometimes they have issuesr with their compute. I ask them what is wrong and they give the usual reply, "I didn't do anything!", which is *really* helpful. I then spend large amounts of time figuring out what they did and reversing it. With Vista, there is a Performance and Reliability graph, which shows application installs, when Windows or a program crashed, and detailed reports on *why* that program or Windows crashed. If I want to get to the root of a problem on Vista, I will simply load up this tool and I will solve their problem in half the time. (Paul talked about this in a recent Windows Weekly netcast). I could go on about the greatly improved color management, the resolution independent display, the WPF framework, DX 10, Media Center, BitLocker, etc, etc, etc. Windows Vista can do things OS X simply cannot. My theory on switching goes like this: XP is old, and feels like driving a Model T. People are tired of it and want something new, so they switch to OS X. However, Vista will be the "new" thing and consequently, people will switch to Vista.

"On a serious note I agree with Paul and personally think that the gen.adv. thing reeks of over kill and verges on the illegal, although I can understand where they are standing." But see the problem is, WGA doesn't even catch everyone, in fact many .de websites have workarounds and show that it is quite easy to circumvent WGA since it is fairly forgiving. People scream OMGORZ! SPIWAREZ! All the thing does is sniff your system info and a few reg keys, and report "yea or ney" back to MS. Period. Aside from all of that, it isn't even required that you install WGA. WGA is only needed if you want to recieve AU stuff. Yes, I know, 'security updates', but the last time I ever was in the middle of an ODBC stack overflow attack was... um... never. Anyway, I'm not trying to blow off AU, its a nice thing, waking up in the morning and having IE7 instead of 6 and WMP 11 instead of 10, its cool. But the fact is, Windows is probably the most pirated piece of software in the world. Microsoft could do ALOT worse than WGA and still be legal. I don't mind that it looks at some of the HKLM/Software/Microsoft keys, and I don't mind that it knows what processor and graphics adapter I use. --- So airport extreme uses DRAFT g technology, and has one ethernet port? And costs 200USD? Lol I'd LOVE to see the BOM on that thing, Apple has to be making like 190USD straight profit. They don't even have to pay for 802.11g licensing!! The consortium lets you use draft technology for peanuts! Yet another situation of the Apple Marketing team maximizing the 'leech off the inept' strategy.

NateB2: A) Many of the features you mention in Vista such as resolution independence are in Leopard. Many of the other things such as color management have been in OS X for years. So you drop a nice, unsupported claim like "Vista can do many things OS X can't" and then just drop off. Well done. The GOP would be proud. B) Most people will get Vista through purchasing a new PC. Macs are sleek and sexy; PC's are dull and ugly. If Vista is supposed to be shiny and new, then your PC vendors need to start making hardware that matches Apple's design. Until then, people will still be opting for the new-looking Mac over the dull black Dell. C) If you think Vista is going to slow down Apple, you're in for a rude surprise. Let's not forget that Apple has had 5 long years to get ready to compete with Vista. But, in the end, I'll let the numbers do my talking. Let's wait and see how Macs do in 2007. Also, Waethorn, where did you go? You didn't want to extend that hand-holding argument of yours? Perhaps BOB broke down and now you can't find your Internet Explorer icon?

"Until then, people will still be opting for the new-looking Mac over the dull black Dell." You know there are other 'PC's besides Dell right? Acer's stuff is made of higher grade material than Macs and the Ferrari paint is a nice touch. Plus there is all the 'custom' system builders, like VooDoo. I always wonder why people like to compare Mac to the 'beige PC', is there embarrassment over the modern PC designs? Even alienware is as cheap as regular vendors, now that they have Dell's supply chain, and their new P2 chassis really does make the MacPro look like grandma's computer. And besides, Apple's MacPro cases have always been rip-offs of Lian-Li cases anyway. Steve's got the yellow fever. P.S. when you put your power supply in the bottom of the case as apposed to the top, its cute and all, and gives a bit more stability, but what did 6th grade science teach us? Heat rises, cool sinks. So you are cooking your mobo. The highend systems that have the PS in the bottom of the case use an acrylic partition between the rest of the case and windtunnel the whole power supply section to the rear. Apple just throws it in the bottom.

"Only one of our OS's boots into an obscene "Welcome" screen the first time you turn it on.OS X leaves you right at the desktop, ready to get stuff done." So does mine if I don't have multiple users and/or a password. Besides that, I don't want other users being able to see what software or documents are on my desktop. It's a security feature. I would've thought that Mac users, of all people, would know better. But of course, that functionality must be reserved for Apple's big break into the corporate world! ;) "And... uh... my OS doesn't have Wizards." Of course not, Mac OSX just works right? If it doesn't work, the user goes "EEP!" (Mac humour there folks) and calls a Mac "Genius" to fix it for $80/hour (or else gets mad and returns it and gets a cheaper PC). Wizards work, and they teach people what they need to know to run a computer without getting their hands dirty in management consoles. Even a newb can understand how a server works by using Windows Small Business Server. It's Windows Server, but has almost every configuration option available as a wizard. Besides that, a "wizard" is just Microsoft's name for a step-by-step configuration dialog box. Are you telling me that Apple doesn't have any of those? BULL SH**! "And I won't even start with the dancing paperclip. Shall we talk about BOB instead?" The paperclip is retired, and BOB wasn't even on the market before getting cancelled. More FUD! (but I still like to bring down your comments) Shall I bring up the "drunken Mac" icon that still shows up on systems? How about the "drunken iPod". Ya, there's a really helpful icon - I must've spilled beer on it or something. Newton? QuickTake? LISA? "Many of the features you mention in Vista such as resolution independence are in Leopard. Many of the other things such as color management have been in OS X for years." Yet Vista will be on the [consumer] market first! Colour management was in Windows 98 FIRST!

"Macs are sleek and sexy; PC's are dull and ugly" Are you serious? Um you should really open your eyes and look at these: http://minipc.aopen.com http://global.shuttle.com Smaller, yet more powerful than a Mac Mini. Plus I can even choose to build a custom one if I want. Shuttle even has an NVIDIA SLI capable unit! Look at this unit and DROOL! http://global.shuttle.com/Product/Barebone/SD37P2-Spec.asp

"So you drop a nice, unsupported claim like "Vista can do many things OS X can't" and then just drop off. " OK, you named two things that are in OS X. What about the rest? The WPF framework is *The Best* way to create *amazing* apps with minimal code. I also mentioned the Performance and Reliability Manager. Where is OS X's equivalent? No, the Activity Manager does not come close. Regarding the age-old argument about the exterior of Macs vs. PC's, I concur with the above posters. Regarding Bob and Clippy: Bob is dead. He has been dead fo 10+ years now. The dreaded "Clippy" is not in Office 2007. Period. End of story. Microsoft listened to their users and killed him. That argument is no longer valid. Also, ad-hominem attacks are not a good way to debate with your opponent. All it tells your opponent is that your argument is weak, so you are falling back to insults as your last resort. I stand by my theory: wait and see what happens this year. Once people start using Vista, you can bet the word will spread about how great it truly is. Yes, it has flaws and bugs, as does every piece of complex software on the planet.

Those shuttle PCs are nice, I really think its funny that iTV is going to try to compete with this, http://global.shuttle.com/Product/System/M2000.asp yeah, iTV is only 200USD, until you realize you NEED another computer for it to work. And you have to shoo people away that mistake it for a coaster.

"Are you telling me that Apple doesn't have any of those?" Yes they do. The Apple terminology is an "Assistant," complete with a tuxedo with a bow tie. "Wizard" just sounds, you know, too much like Micro$$$$$ucks.

@ NateB2: "Open source/free IDE's just can't compare with Visual Studio. They don't come close." Are you kidding me? I'll take FreeBASIC, Notepad, and Batch Files any day of the week. Maybe it's just the obsecenely low levels of memory speaking, but I don't really like VS 2005. Y'all should consider yourselves lucky you're not a student living in a family totally oblivious to technology. And whoever made that smart-aleck remark about dumb users referring to their hard drive as "memory", I get that every time one of my parents tries to "get on the internet". --- Image Refreshes: 3 or 4 This image verification system was written by monkeys with typewriters. It must have been. Anybody with an ASCII table and a basic understanding of simple programming concepts like the loop can write something better than this.

"Y'all should consider yourselves lucky you're not a student living in a family totally oblivious to technology" Right, y'all! heh heh. Might you be a southerner? ;) If you're still using FreeBASIC, the "for Dummies" and "Complete Idiot's Guide to..." books are a pretty good start for those that want to start coding in something a tad more advanced. No, I really mean it. Honestly! One of the things I'd like to point out is that Microsoft is even offering "Express" versions of Visual Studio 2005 for free! For those that don't know, the programs are: V. C# V. C++ V. Basic V. J# V. Web Developer add to that SQL Server 2005 Express, XNA Game Studio Express, access to the MSDN Express Library, and the new Microsoft Robotics Studio, and there's no reason someone on a budget can't get started working on the next "killer" app for Windows or even the XBOX 360. Or how about a killer robot? heh heh fun! (evil killer robots are kewl!) So go buy a book from your local Chapters store (you have those where you live right?), download a free copy of one of the Microsoft IDE's, and start developing! To quote Paul, "It's just good stuff!" microsoft.com/vstudio/express microsoft.com/sql/express microsoft.com/robotics microsoft.com/xna

"And whoever made that smart-aleck remark about dumb users referring to their hard drive as "memory", I get that every time one of my parents tries to "get on the internet"." I have the same issue with almost *all* of my computer illiterate friends/relatives. It seems that to them, hard drive = memory and vice versa. I even get questions like: "If I uninstall this program, will it free up memory so I can install this other program?" Or "Will installing MS Office slow down my computer because it uses memory?" They are still amazed about the performance increase their computer(s) received when I installed 512mb of extra memory for only $30.

Let's hear it for Microsoft engineering--Microsoft announces a new zero-day exploit in all versions of Microsoft Word that allows for arbitrary code execution: http://www.eweek.com/article2/0,1895,2068786,00.asphttp://www.microsoft.com/technet/security/advisory/929433.m spx

What a ****! Funny, but that has the same solution as several Mac OSX exploits that you're always so keen to point out: "Do not open attachments from unsolicited sources" Here's a good one for you bonch - 3 OSX vulnerabilities discovered in the last week: http://secunia.com/advisories/23178/ http://secunia.com/advisories/23159/ http://secunia.com/advisories/23120/ Hmm...when was the last vulnerability found for Windows XP? Almost 3 weeks ago!! Notice that second one is yet another reason your neighbour friend shouldn't use an AirPort Extreme, stick!

BTW bonch: learn to post links. There's no space in between them, and the mspx at the end gets broken in two. Also: "Microsoft announces a new zero-day exploit in all versions of Microsoft Word" WRONG! Notice there is no Word 2007 listed there. Sorry to rain on your parade.

And here's an exploit that is not OS X, but Quicktime... http://www.eweek.com/article2/0,1895,2067683,00.asp?kc=EWNAVEMNL120506EOAD --tayme

I do hates me some quicktime. The only reason it exists is b/c Apple wanted a crappy player to wrap around the .mov encoding scheme. "Apple Software Update: There is an update for your quicktime application! 40.1MB" Screw you!