Reader Comments

I don't know about anyone else, but I can't wait to get myself a Zune. A brown one at that! I'm in the UK and was a little disapointed to see that it is not being released worldwide simultaniously. People where I work have the iPod and after showing them some of the photos of the Zune, they're keen, especially on the brown one. They like the idea of the sharing too - especially as we all have different tastes. It's bound to be poo-poo'd though because it's not an iPod, not because it's inferior. I would have liked to see it work with Media Player 11 though.

The best review so far is from the Chicago Sun-Times: "Yes, Microsoft's new Zune digital music player is just plain dreadful. I've spent a week setting this thing up and using it, and the overall experience is about as pleasant as having an airbag deploy in your face. " 'Avoid,' is my general message. The Zune is a square wheel, a product that's so absurd and so obviously immune to success that it evokes something akin to a sense of pity. "The setup process stands among the very worst experiences I've ever had with digital music players. The installer app failed, and an hour into the ordeal, I found myself asking my office goldfish, "Has it really come to this? Am I really about to manually create and install a .dll file? "...it almost becomes important that you encourage people not to buy one. "The iPod owns 85 percent of the market because it deserves to. Apple consistently makes decisions that benefit the company, the users and the media publishers -- and they continue to innovatively expand the device's capabilities without sacrificing its simplicity. "Companies such as Toshiba and Sandisk (with its wonderful Nano-like Sansa e200 series) compete effectively with the iPod by asking themselves, 'What are the things that users want and Apple refuses to provide?' "Microsoft's colossal blunder was to knock the user out of that question and put the music industry in its place. "Result: The Zune will be dead and gone within six months. Good riddance." But that's not to disparage Paul's excellent Zune review. Both he and Andy hit this one out of the park. Well done.

Hello, I think this is a very disappointing and unprofessional article. First being a ZEN Vision M owner I really don't understand why somebody would be pro iPod. The zen supports Divx, transparently converts quicktime into wmv and features a now matures zencast piece of software that manages RSS much better than iTune. Now about the ZUNE. Come on paul,eventhough the software has some glitches(don't you remember itune 1) they are not preventing the device from being useful. Second Microsoft is not stupid they wanted to be on the market for Q4 PERIOD. Q1 2007 will most probably bring major software updates including Zune Marketplace from the device and much more. You seem to underestimate the fact that Zune Marketplace and Xbox live will help each other in the short and medium term. the xna framework could run on the zune along with xbox liveanywhere...... i could go on and on...... You will be proven wrong in 2007

1. Not all reviews were critical. CNet, PCMag, Engadget all had favorable reviews. 2. Amazon is a single online store. This article was obviously not well researched. 3. We get it, Paul. You hate the Zune. How many times are you going to say the same thing? Are there three different ways of saying you hate something? :-)

fdumesie and djdarknight: Come on, just call a lemon a lemon. 95% of people who've reviewed the Zune hate it. Why is it so hard for you to admit that Microsoft messed this one up? And who cares what happens in 2007? Paul's point is that they screwed up NOW in 2006. And several articles have mentioned that the initial Zune is so bad, it may taint the brand for a long time to come. Paul has always maintained that Zune could improve in the long term. Finally, the thing IS inferior to the iPod. There's just no question. No TV shows, no Videos, shorter battery life, bulkier, software that crashes and takes 30 minutes to install, confusing UI, more restrictive DRM... come on. You really have to be a hardcore Microsoft lackie to call this iteration of Zune good.

"Now about the ZUNE. Come on paul,eventhough the software has some glitches(don't you remember itune 1) they are not preventing the device from being useful." Or even iTunes7! :-)

Fdumesie: If you'd like to understand why "someone would be pro-iPod" simply stop by an Apple store, pick one up, and then install iTunes. You'll understand within 45 seconds. ...But don't worry. Even though you've never owned an iPod or given one a shot, we'll still value your highly important opinion about the device based on an absolute lack of experience.

Cheap shot Shark! :) iTunes 7 had a few bumps, but it still didn't take 30 minutes to download and install, it didn't require you to create two user ID's just to use the program, it didn't feature pictures of orgasming chicks for error screens, and it certainly was fixed within 72 hours. Zune Marketplace shouldn't even be mentioned in the same breath as iTunes.

Paul needed to go after something made by Microsoft to avoid being called a "Microsoft fanboy". He was critical of the Zune even before it was officially announced (before any pictures were made available online or any ). While I do agree with certain points in his review, I really don't think the tone was justified. Or maybe it was so that people would take his Vista articles more seriously. I don't know. He ends up sounding like a wannabe iFanatic. And what about this article? Amazon store? That's just one store - one among the thousands of stores and however tempted you are, I don't think that can be used to arrive at any conclusions. Did anyone really expect Zune to come and displace iPods? REally?

"Finally, the thing IS inferior to the iPod. There's just no question. No TV shows, no Videos, shorter battery life, bulkier, software that crashes and takes 30 minutes to install, confusing UI, more restrictive DRM... come on." And don't forget about those newfangled "podcast" thingies everyone's talking about. Microsoft's had FIVE YEARS to get this right. And I'm laughing at all the "...but wait! It'll get better!" comments. Of course, as Mr. Ihnatko points out, other players ARE worthy competitors to the iPod, but their sales are fairly lackluster, too. Perhaps the brain trust at Microsoft (led by the ultra-cool "J") thought "good enough" would be, well, good enough this time around too. "How many times are you going to say the same thing? Are there three different ways of saying you hate something? :-)" Oh, come on. Paul's just being Paul. How many ways can he say he loves the xBox? I don't hear you complaining about THAT!

bdk: "You really have to be a hardcore Microsoft lackie to call this iteration of Zune good." Thank you for using the words "this iteration". Seriously. Maybe the next one will be good. I have a feeling, though, MS will have more catching up to do than they do now when it comes to portable media players. I am kind of uninterested in Zune as it is 1) a 1st gen product and 2)I can't actually go into a store and try one out because Zune hasn't shipped outside the US. For these reasons, my next mp3 player will, most likely, be an iPod: I can get one now and the product has had five years to mature. Maybe in five years the Zune will be kick *** too. Who knows?

Read this: http://nanocrew.net/2006/11/27/zune-fud-ii/

"http://nanocrew.net/2006/11/27/zune-fud-ii/" Yawn. He names one feature--reverse syncing--that the Zune has that he'd like to see in the iPod, then calls all the negative reviews "FUD". What a freakin' joke. It's not "FUD" when reviewers point out the following facts about the Zune: * Has a larger form factor than the iPod * Is heavier than the iPod * Has lower battery life than the iPod * Is operationally more limited in many key areas * Is incompatible with Microsoft's own so-called "standards" * Offers over 1/3 fewer songson Microsoft's proprietary single-platform store * No TV Shows on Microsoft's proprietary single-platform store * No Videos on Microsoft's proprietary single-platform store * No Audiobooks on Microsoft's proprietary single-platform store * No Podcasts on Microsoft's proprietary single-platform store * No Video Blogs on Microsoft's proprietary single-platform store * Uses a proprietary media player incompatible with Windows Media Player * Has a confusing and (apparently) bug-riddled installation process (many reviews mention this, not just Mr. Ihnatko's) * Has no recording ability (unlike the iPod) * Only works on a single platform * Offers no extras such as games/calendar/etc. * Features a confusing "points system" for purchases on the Zune Marketplace * Does not support gapless playback (only supported on the PC, not on the Zune itself) * Does not support WMA Lossless * Does not support 640x480 video (or photo sizes) in the player (unlike the iPod)--important if you're going to hook it up to a TV from the player * Album art from the Zune Marketplace displays poorly on the Zune player (too low a resolution). But golly-bob-howdy, it has an FM Tuner! Woot!

Thanks for the link, sharky! It is hard to find an objective review of the Zune. Slightly off-topic... Microsoft is giving away free editions of Office 2007 Pro and Vista Business Edition. Go to www.powertogether.com for details. All you have to do is register and complete 3 virtual labs/webcasts and they will send you a full version of Office 2007 and Vista Business Edition, a combined value of $798. What a deal! No, this is not a scam; the domain servers are registered to Microsoft. The site is getting hammered right now, so it may take a few tries to register.

"Zune Marketplace shouldn't even be mentioned in the same breath as iTunes." Actually, the Marketplace is fine and has some very potent integration with the Xbox 360. The 360 added a downloadable movie/TV service as of last week, and with the PC-connection capabilities you can use the Zune Marketplace subscription with an Xbox to provide a nearly limitless play list. Basically it's like an improved version of XM that doesn't sound like total garbage. I am however an XM fan, but that's mostly for the live news content, and some electronic music, which can compress and not sound terrible. "Finally, the thing IS inferior to the iPod. There's just no question. No TV shows, no Videos..." It blows my mind that anyone cares about TV or videos on an iPod. Some people might love it, but I just don't get it... Perhaps that's my perspective of being an Audio/Videophile. However, that does bring an interesting point. If videos come to Zune Marketplace, then coupled with the Xbox, you've got a potent delivery platform (a la Netflix for both audio and video). I also am a huge fan that MS did the right thing, and offers legitimate 720p video on the Xbox video marketplace. Bravo for not cutting the corner on resolution. I haven't used the Zune device itself, but my *only* criteria is audio quality. All I want from a portable device is lossless audio support with superior DACs. I use a portable headphone amp and a pair of Sennheisers. Realistically speaking, any modern device will have suitable usability, but not all of them will have quality op-amps, DACs, decoders, etc. Unfortunately the 30GB drive is just too small for lossless audio. I'm currently around 60-70GB for my entire CD/SACD/DVD-A collection into lossless WMA. MS seemed to miss the point with a 30GB drive. If you use flash memory, you can get away with an understanding that it wasn't designed to hold an entire music collection. I expect HD based players to meet that requirement.

"It is hard to find an objective review of the Zune." LOL...of course it is, when you define "objective" as "glowing and positive". "I'm currently around 60-70GB for my entire CD/SACD/DVD-A collection into lossless WMA." Well, then don't buy a Zune. It won't play back any of those songs, because it doesn't support Microsoft's proprietary "Lossless WMA" format.

J Allard just admitted today that he uses a PowerMac G5 more than his PC at Microsoft. ROFL!

And here's another Windows developer admitting they looked at Macs in their offices to clone from in Vista! http://www.drizzle.com/~lettvin/2006/11/windows-shutdown-crapfest.html

Watching the committed, bought-and-paid-for Microsoft fanbois here actually defending the embarrassing Zune is hilarious. I love it! How's Vista going, guys? Oh, right, it's still not out yet.

Lotsa, I don't get the 5 year logic of yours. It doesn't make sense. Using the same logic, didn't Apple itself have over 7 years to get OS X Cheetah right? Why was it so bad? It is clear that you know nothing about the tech field. Just because iPods have been in existence for 5 years doesn't mean Microsoft had five years to get it right. These things take time and FWIW, Zune is a first gen product and not a 6th gen product and Microsoft has time. You had posted a comment the other day saying the Zune group will fold up in six months. I don't know who said it, but it sounded like another arrogant iFanboy. Microsoft has always said they're in this for the long-run and if the iIdiots don't get it, it's not their fault.

"...But don't worry. Even though you've never owned an iPod or given one a shot, we'll still value your highly important opinion about the device based on an absolute lack of experience." bdk, you can just as easily replace iPod with Zune in your comment and it is just as meaningful. Since I know you are not in the US, I know that you do not have a chance to use or even touch the Zune. So likewise, why should we all believe everyones comments from people that have NOT actually used the product (Zune), but are gleaning this information from other reviews? I've said this before, but I have zero use for any dedicated MP3 player, iPod, Zune, Zen or otherwise. So, I'm not trying to defend the Zune since I don't know enough about it, but I don't find it surprising that iPeople don't like it. bonch, your comment about Vista doesn't make any sense. Vista, as I'm sure you are aware, is RTM, and they are on schedule to release it when they have said they will. Of course it's not out yet, it's not supposed to be. January 30. Now, for a device like this to succeed, they need more than just the techies like those that read and comment on sites like this. I think their marketing of this product is very good, and I don't think it follows how Apple markets their product at all. They have a good amount of celebs with s some "street cred" if you will, that won't necessarily be shown in an Amazon only rank. People are taking the easy way out by only using Amazon as a source, because that is the easiest source to get. I'll wait till I hear some more definitive numbers before I claim this to be a dud, on track, minor success, or whatever you want to call it.

Without getting involved in the whole argument, this was a really intelligent interview with one of the Zune crew that I found from Podtech.net The discussion of Microsoft's forward visions of entertainment I found especially interesting because they discussed user scenario ideas rather than just pushing a particular product in your face. Obviously for Microsoft, the idea of "connected entertainment" is a huge investment. The interview is pretty dry for some folks, as it lacks the super-excited "woohoo" factor, but I found it interesting anyway. http://media.podtech.net/media/2006/10/PID_001253/Podtech_zunefinal.mov Looking over the options, the Zune & XBOX360 product series, as well as their connection to Windows Media Center will offer good, connected user experiences. The XBOX360 still makes for the best Media Center Extender for the money too, but of course, now that movie and TV downloads are available through XBOX Marketplace, it CAN stand on it's own. Of course, who would want it too? Media Center allows you to do so much more, plus you get the added storage capabilities as well as access to your larger media library from your Windows PC (including recorded TV from OTA/Cable/Satellite). For some, the XBOX360 is likely more than enough, though. BTW: Paul mentioned that the screen on the Zune is a "widescreen" in his review when in fact it is NOT! It is a standard 4:3 aspect screen with a 320x240 QVGA resolution. It's the same type of screen that's common on Pocket PC's but without the touch capability. "Widescreen" usually denotes a 15:9, 16:9, or 16:10 aspect ratio screen, where the width is at least 50% wider than it is tall.

And Paul, we get it, you feel slighted that MS didn't take your advice, so now you are being a whiny b***h about it. Think about it. If they had taken your advice word for word, I'm sure your tune would be different regarding the device, and that we should give it time. lotsa, I'm with shark, I don't get your five years comment. Well, I get what you are trying to say, but it doesn't hold water. If the market had been stagnant, then yes, I think we could easily declare Zune the winner against the first gen iPod. But, they have to go against what is current. I really don't understand the criticism of this device. First, I don't really understand the love affair that people have with MP3 players, but that's another story. People are comparing the ONE product to a slew of products in the iPod line. It can't be all things to all people. They want to be strong second, and they will not be overly strong out of the gate. MS has said, and NOBODY would predict that this would be some overnight success. What I would do is pay Paris Hilton, Britney Spears and Lindsey Lohan a ton of money to promote this thing, then you will see some sales, because the drones will buy anything that those people pawn off.

"You had posted a comment the other day saying the Zune group will fold up in six months." No I didn't. I quoted the Chicago Sun-Times review. "Lotsa, I don't get the 5 year logic of yours. It doesn't make sense. " I'm sure YOU don't. Let me explain it: The iPod has been out for five years. Bill Gates held one in his hand immediately after it was introduced. Windows users were hacking the iPod to work with their PCs long before Apple made it compatible. Microsoft has wasted all that time when, if they had utilized even a fraction of their substantial resources in developing a viable alternative, they would OWN the market. Now, it's just a me-too vanity project. Microsoft basically rebranded an existing product, wasted a hell of a lot of energy creating an all-new DRM scheme, kissed the arse of the major labels, and laid a dud. AFTER A YEAR of development, "J" and the crew laid this ugly brown egg. It's sad. I would love to see Microsoft come out with something that blows the iPod out of the water, because that would only make Apple strive to come up with something better. Same with Vista--I'm hoping there's more to it than I read, because it will FORCE Apple to do more, and vice-versa. Competition is good. Watching Microsoft push this god-awful POS (Yes, I've held one, used one, and I'm not impressed in the least) down people's throats and position it as an "iPod Killer" is embarassing to a once-great company. It's another "me too" player, and it it wasn't being marketed by Redmond, it'd be getting no attention at all. Kudos to Paul for holding Microsoft's feet to the fire when they screw up. It's embarassing. With all those people, all those resources, all that talent, THIS is the best they could do? Come on. The only thing worse is to see the MS fanbois pour out of the close to defend this thing. Y'all screamed about Apple's "go it alone" DRM approach, but you sit silent while Microsoft craps all over its partners with this brown turd. Amazing.

BMN: I am in fact a citizen of the United States. I live in North Carolina. Shark/StickNick: It doesn't matter that iPod is in its 5th iteration and Zune is in its first. The guys at Microsoft NEEDED to get Zune's 1st iteration at least on par with the current iPod. For example, if a company came along today and released Windows 3.1 at the same time Vista is coming out, there would simply be no excuse for it. That's basically what's happening with Zune/iPod. Microsoft is trying to overtake a market; they don't have the luxury of releasing a so-so product and then refining it over time. (They have the money to do that, obviously, but that's not the point.) The point is: now that people have seen that the Zune sucks, the brand is tainted for a while to come. Microsoft had to get it right out of the gate and they failed. That's the jist of the "5 years" argument. No one is going to give MS a 5 year honeymoon period to "get it right." They're just going to buy iPods. That's what Paul's advice was: Get it right. Beat the iPod from the start. Be better, smaller, faster, easier, simpler or don't exist at all. I think Paul's review (and his advice) were spot-on.

"I would love to see Microsoft come out with something that blows the iPod out of the water, because that would only make Apple strive to come up with something better. Same with Vista--I'm hoping there's more to it than I read, because it will FORCE Apple to do more, and vice-versa. Competition is good." I have to echo this thought. I'm a Mac user, but I'm totally in favor of good competition and realize that the reason that my Mac was competitively priced when I bought it is that there is a lot of competition from other computer makers. I remember the Sculley-era when Apple was selling their computers at a big premium in a foolish strategy to increase profits over the short term. But considering the Zune, let's be honest: This was a very poor effort. OK, it has Wi-Fi. Fine. But look at all the ways that it falls short of the iPod and consider the fact that even the Wi-Fi feature is severely hobbled by DRM restrictions and you have a product that is not very compelling. Do you disagree? If so, may I ask if you have gone out and put down $240 of your hard-earned dollars for a Zune? No, I didn't think so. The sentiment I hear most often from Zune supporters here is that, OK, maybe this Zune version isn't so hot, but just wait for version 2.0. But that attitude suggests that you Zune supporters are NOT buying Zune version 1.0, but hoping that others will so that you may have an opportunity someday to get a Zune version 2.0 .... maybe ......if it's good enough. So, then, who do you expect to buy all of these version 1.0 Zunes?

"So, then, who do you expect to buy all of these version 1.0 Zunes?" I fully suspect that Zune demographic is "People who blindly hate Apple". There just doesn't seem to be any other compelling reason to waste--er, I mean spend--money on this thing.

I'm not going to get into the flamewar here, but just wanted to point out the most balanced review I've found on the web. This person (gasp) actually used the Zune for a few weeks before posting his review. http://www.extremetech.com/article2/0,1697,2061973,00.asp

Aww cmon. Where's that 'think different' attitude? Microsoft is thinking different, why all the flames? The zune isn't a 'me too' player, I don't care what anyone says. Those use third rate hardware and control schemes that make third rate hardware look good, sadly. So again, Apple people, if its such a piece of crap, stop complaining, you don't have to buy it. Let the people who like crap buy it, believe it or not, not everyone has a media player for a fashion statement. One thing interesting though, the people who seem to care the most about this Zune thing is the iCrew. Look at the reviewers for it, over half of them are the same people who reviewed the last gen of iPods as 'practically perfect'. The extremetech review was refreshing, its nice to read something from someone who actually knows how to write, if you catch my drift. I think the best remark was, "to say the 802.11b networking in the Zune is underutilized is like saying the Pope is "sort of religious."" And the ideas he had were really good, in fact, I'd go as far to say the DJ idea (if done correctly) would warrant enough on itself to be an iPod killer. So in summary, Zune isn't perfect. iPod isn't perfect, but by God, no grown person without at least 0.5% stock in either company should give this much of a crap about any of it. Yes Paul, the 'hubris' of one VP is at the core of the Zune team. He made it, and is going to ride it into the ground over the course of 5 years. Because that is exactly what you do when you want to feel good about yourself. You do something you don't know how to, design it to fail, and sign your name at the top of everything so everyone knows you are the captain idiot. It makes perfect sense, your conspiracy theory. Yep, its all the crazy doings of some VP that probably laughed at you or an idea of yours. Also we faked the moon landing, Elvis is alive and well in Washington state, and Al Gore is an alien who gave us the Internet.

The Zune is an utter failure on a number of levels. First off, Apple's IPod did all of the developmental work for Microsoft in advance. The IPod set the standard for any mass media portable device. It had to exceed the IPod, having all of its strengths and none of it's weaknesses. The areas in which the IPod could have been beaten is huge. It took a corporation with vision and putting quality over profit to do that. Unfortunately, its Microsoft and they are dealing with what made Windows a success. Apple's product is clearly the best in the market. The IPod is the best among consumers, because it is a well made device that has grown from its infancy. Now Microsoft has made a lemon with the Zune and is now on the opposite end of the rope. Its not like the Xbox, which is clearly a success. Yes, Microsoft took big losses. With the 360 selling very well, Microsoft took a bullet in the arm with the original Xbox, to try to make the killer blow. Anyone who knew anything about portable media players, whether they were just the consumer or in the industry, could have told Microsoft how to build a better player. The incompatability with WMP 11 is just unacceptable. To compete with Apple, having access to other music store is a must. Equivalent features to the IPod is a must. And a nice bonus would be to allow free copying of music from devices at no extra charge or DRM interference. Again, Microsoft drop an egg as big as Windows ME. When you engage someone in a fight, don't bring a blade to a gunfight. Especially when your opponent is distant from you and every shot is going to count. Am I going to give Microsoft 5 years to get it right? Hell no. Now I'm looking foward to the IPod purchase and Apple will get my hard earned cash. Maybe this will get Redmond's attention when a guy who really likes Windows and opening up to Apple. Who knows, perhaps a new Mac might be in my future.

The Extremetech article was very unbiased. And I agree with him too. While Zune looks good (even the brown one), there are several issues that need to be adressed. Probably a software and firmware update will do the trick. Anyway, I agree with him that it's best to wait and watch what Microsoft plans to do with the device. One more thing is, Microsoft hasn't really done a great job of marketing it. They're probably planning to release a couple more devices before doing this. One more thing to remember is that on Amazon, there's a sale on iPods and other non-Zune players at the moment. :-) Also, for those who think no one's interested in Zunes, here's something interesting: http://tinyurl.com/yeom83

An important feature missing from Zune is the ability to use it as an external mass storage device. Hell, this thing has a HD but you can't us it! This is just plain silly. Most people I know don't have 30Gigs of music (or don't bother to rip that much) but could use the extra space for simple file backup and exchange (e. g. I use my iPod as emergency boot device) On a side note, MS paying $1 to Universal for every Zune and other "marketing stunts" just to get into the mp3 player market by force is very dangerous for us customers. We might end up paying "taxes" to the music industry for legally aquired music. Univerals already stated that they want $1 for every iPod, too. Others like EMI will follow ... The next likely thing is that they will start raising prices by threatening Apple to licence music to MS only (because MS will gladly pay higher prices - again just to for entering the market). MS ****** up. Their megalomanic behaviour of entering every market has to be payed by Windows OS and Office customers (because they lose money in almost everything other business sector and they already announced that they intend to do so with Zune for years to come).

bdk: "It doesn't matter that iPod is in its 5th iteration and Zune is in its first. The guys at Microsoft NEEDED to get Zune's 1st iteration at least on par with the current iPod." Dude, please read my f*cking post again before you start in with your blather.

"Well, then don't buy a Zune. It won't play back any of those songs, because it doesn't support Microsoft's proprietary "Lossless WMA" format." And I use Vista exclusively, so either way I'm currently unable to use the product. However, they've said they are working on lossless WMA, so I'm guessing that will appear in an early firmware update. No big deal. The disk size is still problematic. As for a "proprietary format", most of the world's digital music is in a proprietary format. MP3, belongs to Fraunhoffer IIS, AAC, while having an open component, is proprietary as used by Apple. The most successful non-proprietary formats are codecs like OGG and FLAC. Almost no one uses those when compared to MP3, AAC, or WMA. As I said before, audio quality is my paramount buying factor. Looking "trendy" is a useless feature when you are wearing a large pair of German headphones. I still have yet to see a low-level audio comparison. The Extreme Tech people said the sound quality was better from Zune than the competition, but what about SNR measurements, THD, does it have any sonic peaks, how many mW is the internal amp? I'm quite annoyed that none of the big manufactures share this information. It's like trying to buy speakers from that 4-letter company that starts with a "B"... They never share anything of consequence, instead preferring to separate you from your money with marketing acumen rather than quantifiable performance.

"It's like trying to buy speakers from that 4-letter company that starts with a "B"" Hey now leave bose out of this, they give you plenty of tech specs, like: "It is good" What's not to like? Don't deny the quality of the 900 series... thats worth all the shortcomings of 'acoustamass' and lifestyle. LoL. But seriously though, SNR, THD, and especially the wattage can all be fudged with appropriate semantics, creative proved that. Yeah *A* SB extigy can get 96dB SNR... can *ALL* of them get it? Maybe... THD varies with line wattage, and line wattage can be RMS, peak, peak-to-peak, googlie to mooglies, etc. I don't think they forgo the tech specs as much as because they want to hide their figures, just that the market is so saturated with like hardware, its not as important. Extremetech says Zune sounds better, so I'll give it a little credence, but I seriously don't know. If any of them can play at their max volume without audible distortion, I'll be happy. Or if any can give me an 80% volume that doesn't get drowned out by road noise on a busy construction-laden sidewalk, I'll be happy.

"If any of them can play at their max volume without audible distortion, I'll be happy." Yeah, problem is couple that with 300 ohm headphones and max volume is barely audible. Actually, if you've got some nice headphones (or even in-ear) then I'm a big fan of the HeadAmp AE-1. It's quite tiny, not much bigger than a portable player, but has a 500mW amp and an internal Li-Ion battery good for 120 hours per charge. It's good at driving any high impedance audiophile equipment off a portable. It sounds very nice. Not as good as their "home" equipment, but given the portability it's the best I've run into. And yes, you're right -- specs can be forged, however it is nice to see some numbers provided at reasonable reference levels. Just like reasonable quality HT gear would do. I'd also like to see *real* reviews of audio gear. Not these qualitative measurements that are largely dependent on someone's personal preferences. As for the 900s, those came from an entirely different company that has, pardon the phrase, changed its tune quite a bit in the years since. Unfortunately I believe they've irrevocably tarnished their image with the most discriminating audience, which is a shame since the name used to mean a whole lot more. Currently I'm a big fan of Revel -- they’ve got tremendous sound across the pricing spectrum. When it comes to highest quality audio gear, I still believe the best stuff comes from the US. Too bad we don't have the video market, but on the bright side a lot of innovation is coming out of TI and similar companies. They might not build retail products, but they sure do provide some great components.

@lotsa: "I fully suspect that Zune demographic is "People who blindly hate Apple". There just doesn't seem to be any other compelling reason to waste--er, I mean spend--money on this thing." Please stop with the "People who blindly hate Apple" mantra. I've said it ad nauseum, and I'll say it again. The reason I'm considering a Zune is because it offers me the one thing that Apple refuses to offer - subscription access to music. I don't hate Apple. They simply don't make the product that interests me. Having said that, I agree that MS missed the mark with Zune. It could have been cool. I like the WiFi capabilities. MS had to do something to differentiate Zune from the iPod, and this is a clever idea. The problem is that the Zune simply wasn't ready for a pre-Christmas release. There's no "Halo", nothing that makes people rush to Best Buy to purchase it. Maybe Zune 2.0?

The Zune is a laughable iPod knockoff that only Microsoft zealots and/or Apple-Haters will purchase and attempt to use. The only iPod-to-Zune converts will be Windows users who currently have an iPod but choose to manage it using something other than iTunes and idiotically complain that they're not enjoying using their iPod without iTunes to manage it. Lastly, by releasing their own player that's incompatible with every online store and uses its own store/drm system, Microsoft has effectively spat in the faces of all their third-party portable music player manufacturers who drank the Windows Media Codec DRM Kool-Aid. iPod+iTunes works for both PCs and Macs. Hell, they even work on Vista right now! It will be fun to sit back and watch Microsoft try to convince the world that they are cool and that the Zune is better than an iPod. Maybe they'll have better luck with Zune 2.0. But as for now, it's downright laughable.

Christopher, that was a very well thought out post. Everyone talks about the experience, looks, battery life, etc, which are important things. However, none of these reviews actually compare sonic quality, either objectively or subjectively. The whole MP3 market has basically taken Blose's playbook step by step. To hell with sound quality, we just need to make it look good. Now, don't get me wrong. I know Blose make some good stuff, and that they "did" make some good stuff. I also know that the sound quality of most of these MP3 players is more than adequate for the masses. And I also know that the battery life and interface are also important. But, geez, Paul already had an agenda before he reviewed the device, and it showed. I'm not saying that the Zune is some great thing. But, even Walt Mossberg, who is typically seen in a turtleneck with Kool-Aid stains on it gave the Zune a chance and gave what I thought was a very nice review. Like I said, I think Paul is just p***ed because MS didn't take his advice. And as mentioned, if the Zune sucks so much and is so insignificant, why all of this consternation? Let it die and move on. bdk, I could have sworn you were not in the US. Sorry for the confusion. However, you still did not mention whether you have actually touched the device, or used it at all, or used it for any significant period of time. And remember something else that Mac users like to point out. Just because the Zune has a different interface and a different way of doing things, doesn't automatically mean it is inferior. Isn't this the same argument that iPeople have about not automatically dismissing the Mac because it is "different"?

"However, none of these reviews actually compare sonic quality," Yeah. Because it's actually irrelevant to some extend: Sound quality only has to be "good enough", because in a typical usage scenario ambient sound on streets/in gyms/ etc will prevent any high fidelity. "Just because the Zune has a different interface and a different way of doing things, doesn't automatically mean it is inferior." I don't see that much differences, just many trials of doing a knock-off product without making it too obvious. Especially the inferior jog dial look-a-like. Actually, the whole product breaths the "I want to be an iPod, too". Reminds me of the various third class copy of MacOS done by MS over time.

"I don't see that much differences, just many trials of doing a knock-off product without making it too obvious. Especially the inferior jog dial look-a-like. Actually, the whole product breaths the "I want to be an iPod, too". Reminds me of the various third class copy of MacOS done by MS over time." I agree with the others. If you really don't care about it and think it's going to fail, why are you so obsessed with it? Ignore it. People who want to buy it will buy it. Why do you care? No one is forcing you to take a look at it, you know?

"Sound quality only has to be "good enough", because in a typical usage scenario ambient sound on streets/in gyms/ etc will prevent any high fidelity." Good point. "Especially the inferior jog dial look-a-like." Bad point. Just because it has a circle shape doesn't make it a jog dial knockoff. It is obviously a button layout, I could tell before touching it. And the circle button layout is really old. Apple sure as heck didn't invent it, and I can date back to 1984 with the NES 'MAX' turbo controller that used a circle button layout. People really need to get over that type of stuff. I'll give Apple the credit of enhancing the functionality of alot of things. But that doesn't mean they invented it. And it doesn't mean that if anyone else makes 'it' they are knocking off Apple. And I will give the Zune one giant advantage over iPod, atleast IMO. Zunes can be used 'blind' as the extremetech fellow mentioned. When I'm walking down the street at 15C in mid winter, I always enjoy my relaxing "CIRCLE" PSP remote, I click I hear next song. All in my warm pocket. iPod? Sorry, have to look at it, or guess... alot. The learning curve for buttons is what? Thats right, nothing. We've used buttons since like 1940. Getting the click wheel jog down to where you can do it blind takes hours. And I don't like cold fingers. Plus, all those chaps walking and running into me while they are staring at their iPod screens... well when they drop it b/c a car honked at them blindly walking into traffic, and shatter the HDD... heh an angel gets its wings.

Did any of you read Internet-Nexus today? I guess Universal is thinking about pulling the same scheme they pulled on Microsoft, i.e. charging Apple $1 per iPod. How ridiculous is this going to get?

"How ridiculous is this going to get?" Considering consumers now buy music and movies on plastic discs with DRM on them that won't be readable on computers/players in 20 years, pretty ridiculous. Then comes digital content. Good to play until the authentication server inevitably goes down 20 years from now (iTunes) or the company behind the DRM abandons it for a newer, incompatible & non-upgradeable, version (Microsoft's PlaysForSure vs Zune Marketplace).

Heh. It's funny that I hear "It's supposed to be an iPod, but the circle isn't even a whee! HAHA!" I'm imigining what the comments would be like if it acutually WAS a click wheel... "Yet another example of MS ripping off Apple" or soemthing of the sort. I'm actually starting to wonder why I even argue here. MS - Apple ... MS - Apple ... Zune - iPod ... Windows - OS X ... It's amazing that we let pieces of silicone, plastic, metal and reams of curly brackets, slashes and numbers take up so much of our lives and fills us with nothing but rage when we think about people who see things differntly. I think I'm going to pour myself a glass of Wolf Blass Grey Label (2002; very nice!) and pick up a book.