Print - WinInfo Short Takes: Week of March 13

Win Info Blog

Last week, I noted that I had 100 Gmail account invites and a few

Windows Live Messenger account invites to give out. Although I gave

them away pretty quickly, I continued to get requests for Messenger

account invites well into this week, so I mentioned it to a friend on

the MSN team and got an amazing gift: 300 invites. As of this morning,

I still have about 90 of those left (the rest went to people who

previously requested invites), so if you're still interested, drop me a

blank email at thurrott@windowsitpro.com with the subject line "Windows

Live Messenger invite" (no quotes). I can't reply to any of these

messages, but I'll fulfill the invites in the order in which they're

received. When they're gone, they're gone. I also have 45 more Gmail

account invites to disperse, so if you want one of those, use "Gmail invite" in the subject line.

==== Short Takes ====

Bombshell, Indeed: Vista Will Not Boot on Intel Macs

Dan Warne wrote me this morning to tell me that he attended a late Microsoft briefing at the Intel Developer Forum (IDF) this week in San Francisco, where the software giant quietly dropped a bombshell: Windows Vista will not support the Extensible Firmware Interface (EFI) BIOS found on Intel-based Macintoshes and thus won't be able to boot on those machines. This is a problem for me personally, as I recently spent $2000 on a new Intel-based iMac, which is looking increasingly like an expensive paperweight on my desk. According to Dan, this Microsoft revelation came after the conference had officially closed and most people had gone home. You can read his write-up on the Australian Personal Computer (APC) Magazine Web site:

http://apcmag.com.

Microsoft Reveals Controversial Final Office 2007 UI

Jensen Harris, a lead program manager for Microsoft Office, wrote me Thursday to alert me to the fact that Microsoft has revealed the final UI for Office 2007 (previously code-named Office 12). Suffice it to say, this UI is going to be controversial. We all knew about the ribbons and tabs replacing the menus and toolbars of previous Office versions. What we didn't know was that Office 12 would be so ... big. And so ... colorful. It's got a vaguely Netscape 8 look to it, which isn't a compliment in any quarter, though I have to say I kind of like it, especially for a very high-resolution screen. But I can see why people would be a bit unenthusiastic about the new UI. To see what I mean, check out Microsoft's Office 2007 UI Overview:

http://www.microsoft.com/office/preview/uioverview.mspx

Microsoft: OpenOffice.org a Good Competitor ... For Office 95

Speaking of Microsoft Office, Alan Yates, the general manager of business strategy for the Information Worker Group at Microsoft, this week unleashed a zinger at Office's competition that I have to admit made me smile. Referring to the open-source OpenOffice.org office productivity suite, which forms the basis for Sun Microsystem's Star Office suite, Yates said the competition was, ahem, just a bit behind. "OpenOffice is fine if you have very limited needs because it was really designed around what Microsoft Office products were designed [to do] 10 years ago," he said. A decade ago, Office 95 was still all the rage; Microsoft has shipped four major Office updates since then. I kind of like OpenOffice.org, but Yates is right about one thing: Its dated UI does look 10 years old. Seems like that'd be something those folks might want to work on.

In Final Push, Microsoft Adds Antispyware Tech to Windows Live OneCare

In a briefing with Microsoft yesterday, I was told that the company was winding down its development of Windows Live OneCare (previously called OneCare Live), its subscription-based PC health and protection service. What is the final piece of the puzzle? The product now integrates with Windows Defender, Microsoft's antispyware solution. Testers will begin receiving the new bits automatically over the new few weeks, and Microsoft expects to be selling the initial retail version of Windows Live OneCare by midyear.

EU Defends Its Technical Expert from Microsoft Attack

Responding to accusations from Microsoft, the European Union (EU) this week defended its technical expert, whom Microsoft had criticized for being a bit too partial to its competitors. "We want to set the record straight," an EU spokesperson said. "We feel obliged to do so given that there have been allegations made concerning the activities of the trustee and suggestions in particular that the trustee has been acting in an inappropriate manner as regards contacts with ... companies which would be interested in making products interoperable with MS products." The EU says its expert naturally had to be in contact with Microsoft's competitors, because he had to ensure that the technical documentation Microsoft was providing as part of its antitrust requirements would, in fact, work for them. "The trustee's contacts with such potential beneficiaries are therefore part of his obligations under the trustee decision and not in any way a form of inappropriate collusion as has been suggested," the spokesperson said. Makes sense to me.

Microsoft Finally Kills Passport; Long Live Passport

Microsoft this week revealed that it would finally kill off its once-reviled Passport system, which it uses for universal Web logon. But it's not really killing Passport; it's just renaming it. In line with Microsoft's other Windows Live services, Passport will be renamed Windows Live ID and will be used to authenticate users on Windows Live, Office Live, Xbox Live, MSN, and other Microsoft services. Microsoft launched Passport way back in 1999 and originally designed it to sit at the middle of a massive suite of services, including the ill-fated "Hailstorm," an attempt by the software giant to bring universal Web logon and other Web services to businesses. But fear not, Microsoft fans, the company hasn't given up: It's developing a technology called InfoCard that, yes, will attempt to provide business users with universal Web logon. It'll get you eventually.

Google Inadvertently Leaks Its Secrets

I'm just curious. If Google can't keep its own data secret, why would anyone trust them to keep users' data secret? This week, Google inadvertently posted an internal document on its public Web site, ironically (ahem) revealing that it seeks to "store 100 percent of [its] user data" on the Web, including "emails, Web history, pictures, bookmarks." To do this, of course, Google will need "infinite storage." Google is working on a Web-based storage system called GDrive (what else would it be called?) that will let users store files online. Anyway, once the company figured out its mistake, it pulled the document and announced it had nothing to announce. I have an announcement: I don't know if we can trust these guys.

Google Settles Fraud Lawsuit

Speaking of Google and--ahem--trust, this week Google settled a click-fraud lawsuit for $90 million. Google was being sued as part of a class-action lawsuit in which it was accused of overcharging customers for pay-per-click advertising, which constitutes the company's primary (only?) form of revenue. Google agreed to pay $90 million to settle the case and will, no doubt, admit no wrongdoing. Hey, it worked in China.

Google Buys Web Word Processor

To conclude this week's odd Google mania, everyone's favorite search engine du jour yesterday purchased a Web-based word processing business called Writely and its product of the same name, setting the stage for what will no doubt be an uneventful war between Web-based applications and more traditional Windows-based productivity applications, such as Microsoft Word. Writely lets users compose and edit text documents, share them with others, and, presumably, print them to local printers. The company was founded in 2004, and probably has about 16 active users, so it will be interesting to see where this goes. According to Microsoft, Word is the "clear leader" in the market, with more than 400 million users. To make a long story short, Microsoft isn't particularly worried about Writely just yet.

Amazon Talks to Studios About Downloadable Movie, TV Service

Online retailer Amazon might have just stumbled onto the latest thing it can lose money selling: digitally distributed movies and TV shows. Amazon is talking with various movie studios and TV production companies to explore interest in an Amazon service that would let customers download digital versions of movies and TV shows and watch them on PCs or burn them to DVD. If it happens, Amazon will find itself going head-to-head with Apple Computer, though Apple's iTunes service offers only low-quality (technologically, not content-wise) TV shows that can't be burned to DVD. Existing PC-based movie download services such as Movielink and CinemaNow haven't really taken off in the market, but those services offer only a small selection of big-budget movies and have been hampered with peculiar Digital Rights Management (DRM) schemes. Can Amazon succeed in this market? Hey, it's making a killing in lawn tools and gourmet foods.

"OpenOffice is fine if you have very limited needs because it was really designed around what Microsoft Office products were designed around 10 years ago," he said. Most be do have "very limited needs". There are numerous installations of Office 97 out there. Most of the functionality that has come with newer Office releases revolves around business users who want more collaborative functions and interoperability between their office apps. But, just like with Office 95, most people use Office apps for their original intention: Create the file or document apps were designed to make from the beginning. That has hasn't changed.

"Windows Vista will not support the EFI (*) BIOS found on Intel-based Macintoshes as expected, and thus will not be able to boot on those machines. This is a problem for me, personally, as I recently spent $2000 on a new Intel-based iMac, which is looking increasingly like an expensive white paperweight on my desk." Paul, dude. You spent two grand on an Intel based iMac and are ****** because Vista won't run on it? That has to be one of the dumbest things I have ever heard from anyone. Mac is making damn sure OSX won't run on PC's what makes you think Microsoft will allow Vista to run on Macs?

Not that she's ugly or anything, but the lady clipart for Reader Comments seems a little odd to me. Perhaps a Paul Thurott bobble-head would be more appropriate? For what seemed to be a slow week in tech news, Paul Thurrott appears to have dug up quite a few interesting tidbits.

Fine, lets move the debate here -- TOPIC- VISTA VS. OSX LEOPARD Both are in Beta's so no problem, and I didnt get much enthusiasm in the debate I started with the same topic in short takes of march 7, so I hope to get some replies here. Also I want to see which is best , cuz i am planning to buy a new comp. or tablet pc. As from short takes of march 7, OSX leopard was leading. I will maintain the scores. SCORE - 1-0 (MAC-WIN)

Where to start...you miss so many critical points. First, it's probably a great thing that MS ignores OpenOffice. Microsoft can contentedly go about developing the kludge it calls productivity software and people using OpenOffice can contentedly go producing things with it. Everyone's happy. A large part of the problem with developing more and more productivity suite versions is that at some point there is nothing more to do (except possibly screw things up which once worked). There's an old IT joke that goes: A pilot is running out of gas and in desperation flies low past a building and puts a sign to the window of the plane which reads "Where am I?" He flies back past the building and there's a sign in the window of the building which reads "You are in a plane, flying at low altitude past our building." Then the pilot knew he was flying past Microsoft headquarters and could find the aiport from there. Office 95 had menus you could get to know and use effectively. Later versions of Office had menus which tried to guess what you'd need and were wrong about half of the time, but they did have the effect of making you hunt for what you knew was available and had been switched around. This newest iteration of Office promises per Microsoft's Office PR website to "display the commands that are most relevant for each of the task", and this from people who have never written a relevant help box or piece of documentation in their entire history! Personally the first thing I do with any piece of software is to short circuit any attempt by the software to "help" me by providing "what I'm probably looking for". Once the human is in charge and the computer does what it's told, productivity can commence. OpenOffice is marginally guilty of this "relevancy" mindset as well, but it's a lot easier to diable this tendency in OpenOffice, thereby rendering a product that's --- much like Office 95! That's the point, that's the benefit, not the drawback.

"Mac is making damn sure OSX won't run on PC's what makes you think Microsoft will allow Vista to run on Macs?" Well, the fact Microsoft said Vista would include support for EFI, the replacement for the now 25-year-old BIOS implementation that you PC users are stuck using. Vista losing EFI is yet another feature dropped from this late operating system that barely manages to catch up to where OS X Tiger was in April of last year. It illustrates two things. 1.) Microsoft holds back the computing industry with its inferior technology. When everyone should be moving off of 25-year-old BIOS technology by now, Microsoft is making sure you're using it for another 10 years. 2.) Macs are always more advanced than PCs. By the time you guys finally get EFI, Apple users will have had it for a decade. It's yet another example in history of Macs being top of the line and PCs being a decade behind. There are countless examples of Apple pioneering something and PCs dragging their feet into finally adopting it five years later.

"This is a problem for me, personally, as I recently spent $2000 on a new Intel-based iMac, which is looking increasingly like an expensive white paperweight on my desk" I buy paperweights. Love to have yours! I usually give $3 to $15 for them. Let me know

AkshayGenius- Look at Microsoft's track record of innovation and delivering products. Look at Apple's track record of innovation and delivering quality products. Then decide which OS you want to use.

What, Paul, you don't even make one mention of Origami, the latest big-news product from Microsoft? Instead, you start out this week's blog on Macs and whether Vista will be bootable on them. Why would you start with a story about a product from a company with only a puny 3% market share, while omitting to mention the latest big product from everyone's favorite software juggernaut? Doesn't make much sense to me. Maybe you should consider re-naming your side "MacITPro".

"What, Paul, you don't even make one mention of Origami, the latest big-news product from Microsoft? Instead, you start out this week's blog on Macs and whether Vista will be bootable on them. Why would you start with a story about a product from a company with only a puny 3% market share, while omitting to mention the latest big product from everyone's favorite software juggernaut?" That's because Origami is just another lame Tablet PC. The bigger news is that Microsoft is dropping yet another feature from Vista. Clearly, Microsoft doesn't want to allow consumers to see Windows and OS X side-by-side--they know consumers would run screaming from the now-20-year-old disaster that has been the Windows experiment.

"Microsoft holds back the computing industry with its inferior technology. When everyone should be moving off of 25-year-old BIOS technology by now, Microsoft is making sure you're using it for another 10 years." Unlike Apple, Microsoft actually talks about their product before they ship it, so features cant just be pushed off to the side without anyone knowing like Apple is able to do. Microsoft doesnt have the ability to just push off something silently for a few releases like Apple does. Microsoft also has to make sure everything works correctly even on legacy hardware, Apple doesnt, they just recompiled their entire OS for x86 chips so legacy support isnt a real issue there, they can do whatever they want at that point.

P.S. For anyone seeking info on what you PC users are missing out on yet again, here is what Windows Vista is dropping support for: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extensible_Firmware_Interface My Mac can connect to the Internet and download updates before it even boots OS X. I can do all sorts of crazy things in the EFI prompt and even write EFI drivers that load devices before the computer is even booted. Your PCs are still stuck using "ACPI" and other decades-old junk. Poor decision by Microsoft here to not advance PCs forward.

"Unlike Apple, Microsoft actually talks about their product before they ship it, so features cant just be pushed off to the side without anyone knowing like Apple is able to do." So what you're admitting is that Microsoft hypes vaporware that never ships. "Microsoft doesnt have the ability to just push off something silently for a few releases like Apple does." That's Microsoft's fault for holding conferences to hype vaporware just to keep their name in the news. When Apple announces something, it's usually availalabe for sale that very day, or at least within the month. Steve Jobs is very clear that a company has an advantage if they're not revealing every single thing. "Microsoft also has to make sure everything works correctly even on legacy hardware, Apple doesnt, they just recompiled their entire OS for x86 chips so legacy support isnt a real issue there, they can do whatever they want at that point." Legacy support hasn't been an issue on the Intel Macs other than the Pro apps, which already have Universal Binary versions. If you want to defend Microsoft keeping people in firmware designed 25 years ago for the original 8086 IBM PC, have at it. I guess the summary is that unlike Microsoft, Apple actually ships products when they announce them.

"So what you're admitting is that Microsoft hypes vaporware that never ships." Ahem. Here at WindowsITPro, we prefer to use the word "markets": Microsoft "markets" vaporware that never ships. Oops! I meant "Microsoft markets software that never ships." Wait! Erase that! What I wanted to say was that "Microsoft markets software that ships." (eventually).

I can't believe that Microsoft's research group actually approved the new UI for Office.

Hehe, what's with all these mac users coming to a windows news site and asking people to switch. Don't they have anything else to do?

OSX LEOPARD LEADING SCORE - 2 - 0 (MAC-WIN) MAC SCORES ANOTHER POINT AND VISTA IS WAY BEHIND!! EVEN THOUGH NOBODY'S ACTUALLY PARTICIPATING IN THE DEBATE I AM STILL KEEPING THE SCORES ON THE JUDGEMENT OF PEOPLES COMMMENTS!

"Unlike Apple, Microsoft actually talks about their product before they ship it, so features cant just be pushed off to the side without anyone knowing like Apple is able to do." This Totally True. Microsoft/Windows has a huge market for businesses/enterprises. Providing information is paramount because those companies have to make plans for the future. Apple has very little marketshare for that kind of companies. So they have no obligation to pre-release info regarding their stuff. P.S- I think this "bonch" fella is a RETARD

The new office UI SUCKS big time. ie- the office button, the colors(light Blue). (The old one-Beta1 looked great) The office button is so big and Ugly. The windows are not even symetrical.(ie-top left corner??) They've said that it'll fully support Glass in vista so it might look good in Vista.

Oh Bonch, you're allways good for a laugh. Where to start. Well, firstly you are once again intimating that Microsoft are copying Apple, and playing 'catch up'. Vista may have taken time to come to market, and even Paul would probably be in line to give Microsoft a good telling off for it - but the idea that Microsoft are copying Apple in order to keep up, is laughable. Microsoft were talking up the features in Longhorn long before OS X 'Tiger' was released or even announced, so, figuring out who is copying who is difficult, and totally irrelevant. Microsoft will be supporting future alternatives to the BIOS. The idea that we'll be stuck with the same old technology for, as you put it '10 years' is stupid, and is an assumption you are suggesting to prove a point - and you're wrong. We allready KNOW from most of Microsofts longer term plans for the Windows and Windows server platform, that major changes and even replacements to the BIOS will be needed. Just because EFI support isn't there, doesn't mean that some other replacement /will/ be, although I'm sure that in true Apple-fan style, you'll be teling me how EFI is 'best'. Apple can go off down the EFI path, and Microsoft will do - well, something elese! And you know, most users won't care, or even notice. Intel aren't the only people out there with a new BIOS replacent, not to mention the fact that the BIOS of today is vastly different to the BIOS of 25 years ago. This isn't major news of a dropped feature as you seem to think, but a minor change to the Windows architecture, that may even be intentional; For all you know, your amazing new BIOS might actually be pants compared to what Microsoft has in mind - but then, how could that be, Microsoft are followers not leaders right?

Let's just call Vista what it really is: "Microsoft Windows XP Service Pack 3 PI* Edition" *Pretty Interface.

"Why would you start with a story about a product from a company with only a puny 3% market share, while omitting to mention the latest big product from everyone's favorite software juggernaut?" Perhaps because Origami was a non-starter from the beginning. Those sub-tablets will be lucky to get a .000003% market share.

Wow!!! We have a lot fruity people(fruity means those who support apple) Based on the peoples comments here - I HAVE to give apple another point and microsoft still lagging behind with 0. So the scores are as follows: 3-0 [Mac-Win]

I'll Definitely upgrade to Vista when it comes out BUT If anyone wants all the features wait until sp1 and better yet wait until sp2 to get the security holes fixed. :-)

Well, genius, I'd like to rephrase your comment: There's a lot of desparate fruity guys (of course, fruity still means those who root for apple) who come to a windows site and try to make fun of people who use windows (small (2% share) but vocal minority). If you do want to compare track records, why don't you compare sales too (for every mac, about 400 pcs are sold)? Come on, give me a break. Apple needs to cater their products only to one market (and a small one at that too!), whereas Microsoft has to cater to a much bigger population. You would probably know that it's easier to satisfy one person than to satisfy 400!!! Keeping this in consideration, the score is: Windows 400 - Mac 0! (Mac loses).

another funny thing about mac fans: when paul finds faults with microsoft software, they lap it up..."even paul says this software sucks!!". but when he praises some microsoftv software, they question his credibility.

I find it amazing how apple users always talk about how good OS X is. When the whole time it lives on hardware designed and enginerd by apple. pc,s can be build by thousands company's with diffarent parts. How about apple coming out of the glass bubble and run with other OS's out there?.I can run xp on a p2 to the p4 win 98 to p4 sort of p3 no problem. heck linux runs on a 486. Can apple OS do that? before you boost your OS run them on the same hardware if not then quit bragging when you have a handicap. Don't you guys get it yet bill gates saw a Market and took it. Money is in OS's not hardware like apple. You don't make billions unless their is a need.

I think shark47 and coke_2001 are correct! The reasons stated above are true and enough the give 3 more points! So the scores are now equal!! Tight competition here, but yeah shark is correct. So the scores are as follows: 3-3 (MAC-WIN) Hurray for microsoft!!! {FOR ONCE}

I think you are missing the point with MS cancelling Vista's support for booting from EFI. It would appear more to be a marketing reason, not technical. If MS guaranteed native Vista booting on a computer purchased primarily for the fact that it is an apple and runs apple's OS and software, then multiple problems develop. 1) Mac machines become the superior architecture: would you want hardware capable of running "Apple, Linux, or Windows", or would you want to buy a box limited to Vista and Linux? A box where Vista is usually preinstalled and has platform mindshare and perhaps a proprietary advantage when it comes to the TrustedComputingModule-based applications as well as playing next generation Blue & HD DVD's requiring encryption and approved drivers to talk to digital screens. If the apple platform moves toward becoming the "desired PC configuration" (due to the triple OS support and Mac-specific features), Microsoft would be running at a disadvantage. A copy of Vista doesn't come pre-installed on a Mac. Perhaps worse -- Vista would have to compete against OS-X on the same hardware. Right now MS only faces serious platform benchmark competition from Linux. It might not fair so well against OS X. Face it -- how would it look -- same hardware, but Vista running with 200 open bugs, loads of MS-protection software needed to protect from built-in bugs/flaws, but on same hardware OS X might run with comparitively 1/10th or 1/20th the bugs. What if vista faired significantly worse in one or more application areas that also run on OS X? On top of that, there you would have MS's bane: unlicenced MS-compatible machines, just crying for a boot-leg copy of MS: who's going to want to pay MS's tax when they already have a comparabler (or better) OS? No...better not to play in the same tub. Comparisons would be bad.

Astara, In my opinion, the hardware manufacturers have more to lose than Microsoft itself. If Vista adds support for EFI, it's going to increase Mac sales, not because people want to compare the two OS's, but because a lot of people would like to have a windows OS. I don't think it's going to do any damage to window's sales. Several people who buy Macs will install Vista on their computer too. This, of course will dent PC manufacturers' sales and considering that Microsoft has had a long collaboration with these manufacturers, I don't think Microsoft would want that to happen. Probably Micrsoft and PC hardware manufacturers are working on a bios as I write this comment?????

" (small (2% share) but vocal minority).....why don't you compare sales too (for every mac, about 400 pcs are sold)?" Huh? OK, if Apple as a 2 or 3% market share, how do you come up with one Mac for every 400 PC's (=0.25%)? You must be doing your arithmetic on a Windows PC. By the way, I hear the 2 or 3% market share figure a lot (which would correspond to 1 Mac per 33 to 50 PC's), but has anyone here really stopped to think about that figure and whether it is consistent with everyday observations? At the coffeeshops I go to, roughly 1 out or 2 or 3 users is using a Mac laptop (iBook or Powerbook). Perhaps you can come up with a lower figure for your locale, but I'll bet that the ratio is nowhere near 1 out of 33 or 50. My guess is that the 3% share figure includes all miscellaneous PC's used in businesses and offices (e.g., at your DMV, the airport, inventory control PCs at businesses, etc.).

You're right, the 400 was an error and it should have been 40 instead (geez, I should stop using a mac to do calculations :p). Anyway, so what if you've seen cafes where every second computer is a mac? I've seen labs where every computer is a mac just as I've seen cafes where every computer is a PC. That doesn't say much. If you're trying to say that if you don't count offices etc, the mac marketshare is almost equal to that of pcs, go ahead, I am not going to try to change your opinion. It's like me saying, I've seen a lot of people using iriver. If you don't count university students, in fact, ipods don't have a good market share. Just trying to draw an analogy (I do own an ipod btw).

You should also remember that most middle class families buy pcs, since they are more affordable. Dell alone sells 10 times more computers than Apple and lately I've seen a lot of Dell's around.

"At the coffeeshops I go to, roughly 1 out or 2 or 3 users is using a Mac laptop (iBook or Powerbook)." That's because for what Starbucks charges for "coffee", the only people that can afford to buy coffee there are the people who can afford to buy Macs. That, and there's the whole "Starbucks n' Mac" trendy factor.

I've seen labs where every computer is a mac just as I've seen cafes where every computer is a PC. That doesn't say much." Sure it does. By your own observations, it says that Macs have a much greater presence than a 3% total market share would suggest. "If you don't count university students, in fact, ipods don't have a good market share." ??? Wha..? Huh?? If I don't count university students (i.e., total population of users minus university students), then "iPods don't have a good market share"??? Are you OK over there shark47 ? "Dell alone sells 10 times more computers than Apple and lately I've seen a lot of Dell's around." Yeah, too bad about all the recent news about Dell's falling profit margins. You would think that with such a large market share that their total market capitalization (i.e., the total value of the company) would be a lot larger than Apple's whereas in fact they are now about equal. Guess that one is limited to razor-thin profit margins and very little market buzz if all you can do is crank out cheap, dull beige boxes.

"Sure it does. By your own observations, it says that Macs have a much greater presence than a 3% total market share would suggest." Nope, doesn't say a thing. By the same token, I've seen some computer labs full of sun machines. Does that say sun has a huge market share? No! The sample size is just too small. I know that nothing I say will convince you that you're wrong. You yourself agree that dell sells 10 times more computers. Who the heck cares about their profit margins/ total market capitalization. That is not the focus here. Apple's profit margins are much higher. So what?? The bottomline is that Dell sell 10 times more computers. So what if they sell cheap, dull beige boxes? Apparently people want them, because thats what they're buying. And Apple has had a turnaround in recent years due to the success of ipods. Compare profits from computer sales, not overall profits. "?? Wha..? Huh?? If I don't count university students (i.e., total population of users minus university students), then "iPods don't have a good market share"??? Are you OK over there shark47 ? " My sentiments exactly! If you read my earlier comment, I equated your statement ("My guess is that the 3% share figure includes all miscellaneous PC's used in businesses and offices (e.g., at your DMV, the airport, inventory control PCs at businesses, etc.). ") to my comment on ipods - both are senseless. I'm glad you see my point. Why are you bent upon proving your point that Apple has a big market share? Why should the market share bother you? You own a mac - great for you! Why are you bent upon ridiculing everyone who doesn't own one?

My sentiments exactly! If you read my earlier comment, I equated your statement ("My guess is that the 3% share figure includes all miscellaneous PC's used in businesses and offices (e.g., at your DMV, the airport, inventory control PCs at businesses, etc.). ") to my comment on ipods - both are senseless. I'm glad you see my point." Oh, I see now. Boy, I'm having a really difficult time distinguishing between your intended non sequitors and your unintended non sequitors. "You yourself agree that dell sells 10 times more computers. Who the heck cares about their profit margins/ total market capitalization. That is not the focus here. Apple's profit margins are much higher. So what??" So what?! Tell that to Michael Dell and his stockholders. Profits make or break companies, not market share. You tried making a big point about Dell's big market share, and I simply pointed out that Dell's profit margins are declining. But be my guest and go ahead and focus on market share if you wish. Excuse me for not buying into the importance of your irrelevant metric, though. "Nope, doesn't say a thing. By the same token, I've seen some computer labs full of sun machines. Does that say sun has a huge market share? No! The sample size is just too small. I know that nothing I say will convince you that you're wrong." Ho! Ho! Ho! Next you'll be telling me about your computer lab full of PDP-9's or VAX's. I simply made the point that Apple laptops appear to be more numerous than a 3% market share (i.e., 1 out of 33) would suggest, and you try twisting my words by attributing the statement to me that: "the mac marketshare is almost equal to that of pcs" Did I say that?! No! You did!

"Ho! Ho! Ho! Next you'll be telling me about your computer lab full of PDP-9's or VAX's. I simply made the point that Apple laptops appear to be more numerous than a 3% market share (i.e., 1 out of 33) would suggest, and you try twisting my words by attributing the statement to me that: "the mac marketshare is almost equal to that of pcs" Did I say that?! No! You did!" No, Santa. I didn't say it and I never implied that you said it. I just wanted to know if you did. I don't twist words any more than you do. It's easy to take bits and pieces of a sentence and alter its meaning completely and that's what you're trying to do. Please reread my comment and you'll see what I'm saying. I'm also trying to tell you that if you only look at cafes and judge the marketshare, then your judgement will be skewed, simply because the sample size is just not big enough. That's where your argument breaks down! Regarding Dell, its troubles have nothing to do with Macs (I'm sorry to say this, but you're giving the Mac way too much importance). Dell is facing competition from other PC manufacturers, such as HP, Acer and Lenovo. In addition, the market for AMD has picked up significantly over the last year and Dell doesn't sell AMD processors. Most of Apple's profits last year came from the sale of Ipods and from Pixar studios, not from Mac, so, although Dell has its own mp3 player, comparing the profits of Dell and Apple is like comparing apples to oranges! Their main focus is different. Compare only the computer divisions and you'll see the difference! Also, by criticizing a product ("cheap, dull beige boxes.."), I don't know what you're trying to achieve. That kind of statement seems to reflect a desparate attempt on your part to win the argument. Having proven that the logic behind your argument is faulty, I rest my case!!!

WOW!!! SOME DEBAT!!!!! I THINK THERE WAS EQUAL OPPOSITION FROM BOTH THE SIDES SO 2 POINTS MORE TO EACH. THE COMPANY WHICH WINS , THE SUPPORTERS OF THAT TEAM WILL ALSO GET A PRIZE. AND THE PRIZE IS LIMEWIRE PRO, BITLORD PRO AND MESSENGER BETA!!! I AM THINKING OF GIVING VISTA BUT IS IT OKAY , TO DISTRIBUTE VISTA COPIES LIKE THAT?